Autopano Giga 3 stitch problem - information missing!  

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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:34 am

lumelix wrote:The reason I mention this is because James now HAS this Panoshoot controller and should look at the problems with the manufacturer.

I agree ...but it may be better now to take the Panoshoot issues direct to Panoshoot:

http://www.panoshoot.com/

or at least to post those issues hereafter in the Panoshoot section of the forum:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/f46-panoshoot

It's notable that no-one from Panoshoot has offered any response in this thread and I've seen no posts from the Panoshoot developers on the Kolor forum for quite a while.

So that he can therefore usefully work finally with it. It is not really helpful if we recommend him other equipment that he hasn't.
I'm convinced that, with some improvements and experience, he can work very well with his equipment.

True enough if he has the desire and persistence to address the issues.

OTOH he may choose to swap the Panoshoot for a T&C Touch controller - if he wishes to stick with the Panogear robot.

Or, he may choose to swap the Panogear+Panoshoot for a Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16.

And he may choose to add a fisheye lens to his set of equipment.

I think it's reasonable for us to have set out the alternatives to the setup he's currently struggling to 'tame' and which will continue to be less than ideal for his needs.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:25 pm

Artisan New wrote:
Klaus wrote:The only shortcome for me was: with lenses longer than 105mm it became very slow.

Klaus, I don't understand this behavior since when using shorter lenses the head travel time versus the photo shooting time should increase. When using a 105 you make 312 images for which the head has to travel 12 x 360 + 1 x 90 + 1 x 180 = 4590 degrees, for a FE you shoot 7 photos for which the head travels 90 + 100 + 360 degrees = 550 degrees. Now per photo that is 4590/312 = 14.711 degrees traveled per photo shot....while using a FE you have 550/7 = 76.6 degrees per photo shot. So using the longer lens actually means taking less travel time per photo if I'm doing my math right (and you are welcome to check these). Now in absolute time you talking the truth since it will take longer....but relative it's quicker.

Greets, Ed.

The head has two modes of moving: a "fast" move to go the way to the next shooting point and then a "slow" part oft this way to exactly (!) match the point.

With a short lens the way to go between points is relatively long. So it goes "fast" first and "slows" down when it approaches the exact position.

With longer than 100mm lenses the distances become so short that the head ONLY moves in the "exact positioning mode".

And THIS one is very slow. I realized that the first time i used a 300mm lens - for shooting a mosaic of about 20x30° it took the head more than 1,5hrs.

Josef - who developed the T&C - can explain it in-deep when he´s back from holliday.

It´s quite logic to me: there´s a combination of motionspeed and precision of positioning - which is better the more precise the positioning works. Which means the power of the motors, teh precision of the worm-gear and of course the precision of calculating the position by
sensors on teh motors resp. the drives.

The Merlin definitely is astonishingly good in what it does related to the price! If you want if faster AND more precise - it´s becoming much more expensive.

I shot spheres using the Merlin for about 1,5 years - using a N800 first and after that the T&C controller when i asked Josef to develop an alternative for the N800 - until i got the first prototype of Josef´s Panoneed and accompanied the development for about two years by testing, testing, testing.

The Merlin served very well for spheres using 20mm for indoor spheres and 85mm for outdoor resp. very large rooms/halls.
This pano i did using the Merlin, a Canon 20D and a Nikon 85mm: http://www.360impressions.de/Medienhafen/
This pano i did using the Merlin, a Canon 20D and a Nikon 20mm: http://www.360impressions.de/TourMW.html

So you see: the Merlin is very good for spheres - as long as you don´t use a fisheye . . .

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:33 pm

Artisan New wrote:Now that is is absolute true but in your first post in this thread you advice James to invest in a Fisheye and a TC controller and you do not mention the big Nadir which you DO mention in a post about the Panogear of which I took the liberty of quoting (as you do so liberatly yourself):

I NEVER *advised* somebody to use a fisheye on Merlin - and i NEVER will.

BUT: you CAN do that as long as you can live with or compensate the big base of the head.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:40 pm

marvinberry wrote:Thanks guys, although I chip in less frequently than yourselves, I am reading all of your comments and trying to take it in. It's one hell of a maths class!! I'm out of the country from tomorrow for 3 days and I will most certainly be without internet connection (don't ask!) - but just wanted to let you know that I haven't run away! My partner will be going through this over the weekend (good luck to him and fingers crossed) so lets see what happens! Many thanks to you all for your kind assistance!

James

Hi James!

You CAN do indoor panos using the Merlin very well. I suggest to use a 20mm lens on FX.
This way the Nadir is smaller than it is with a fisheye.

But you will most likely need to use the xml for positioning "featureless" images.

Klaus
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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:43 pm

Ah, I see.....I use steppers not motors......and that is indeed a whole different ballpark I can use microstepping in combination wirth a 200 steps (x 8 = 1600 microsteps x 20 is 32000 steps per revolution of the head....360/32000 = 0,01125 degrees per step, using an antibacklash gear. Now I use fairly advanced motor drivers that can be controled by pulling 3 circuits to ground, and acceleration and deceleration is handled by the Arduino using the Accelstepper library (if all goes well :)),

But indeed the Merlin is nice for what is offers. But it's more fun building your own controler....though a bit more expensive then a Merlin a lot less expensive then a allready groundbreakingly cheap Panoneed, and you learn a lot while doing so. From using Sketch for the Arduino to write the code, over Fritzing to design the circuit board, to FreeCAD, NetFabb, Blender and Repetier Host to design an enclosure (for when I have my own 3D printer build) and using motor drivers and stepper libraries.

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:51 pm

Klaus stating James saying he owns a Panogear wrote:James, i *strongly* suggest to use a fisheye for indoor shots - unless you
1) are VERY skilled
and
2) you shoot in rooms larger than 150qm.

Now Klaus I don't blame you being right. Since indeed a FE is a good way to go.....but then you kinda forgot that poor James is batteling a Panogear and a unwilling Panoshoot controler to top it off. Maybe a T&C controler could help him to shoot better spheres. But hey he's of to the tropics, right James.....and forget about these pesky panorama problems while your there, use the 7D as a camera, happy shooting.

Greets, Ed.
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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:55 pm

Klaus telling James to keep using his 20 wrote:But you will most likely need to use the xml for positioning "featureless" images.

Klaus

Yeps, your right we (as in Adrew and moi) told him that allready but he has a slew of other problems dragging behind him:

1) NPP not achieved
2) Full 360 degree not achieved
3) Where the #### is the XML in the Panoshoot
4) How do I get the Panoshoot to shoot the way I want it since 7 x 3 is no way to shoot a proper pano.

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:59 pm

Artisan New wrote:
Klaus stating James saying he owns a Panogear wrote:James, i *strongly* suggest to use a fisheye for indoor shots - unless you
1) are VERY skilled
and
2) you shoot in rooms larger than 150qm.

Now Klaus I don't blame you being right. Since indeed a FE is a good way to go.....but then you kinda forgot that poor James is batteling a Panogear

I didn´t forget that "poor James is batteling a Panogear" - your words - at all.

My suggestion was related to a before mentioned manual head - which definitely is preferable over a Merlin in terms of indoor-fisheye shooting.

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:08 pm

klausesser wrote:I NEVER *advised* somebody to use a fisheye on Merlin - and i NEVER will.

BUT: you CAN do that as long as you can live with or compensate the big base of the head.

Klaus

Here are two panos that show the difference in nadir footprint of the NN4 R-D16 and the Merlin.

Shot with Nikon 10.5 FE on a Nikon DX body.




Last edited by mediavets on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:15 pm

klausesser wrote:You CAN do indoor panos using the Merlin very well. I suggest to use a 20mm lens on FX.
This way the Nadir is smaller than it is with a fisheye.

Klaus

I'm getting old and my brain is frazzled by trying to grasp why the nadir footprint of a Merlin in a spherical pano would change size depending on sensor type and focal length and lens type of the lens used to shoot the pano.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:16 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:I NEVER *advised* somebody to use a fisheye on Merlin - and i NEVER will.

BUT: you CAN do that as long as you can live with or compensate the big base of the head.

Klaus

Here are two panos that show the difference in nadir footprint of the NN4 R-D16 and the Merlin.

Shot with Nikon 10.5 FE on a Nikon DX body.

Yep - that´s doable. And when you tilt the head for a Nadir shot - while dragging it aside a bit and also raising it a bit you even get a patchable Nadir image
(but without getting an xml for this image of course).


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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:23 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:You CAN do indoor panos using the Merlin very well. I suggest to use a 20mm lens on FX.
This way the Nadir is smaller than it is with a fisheye.

Klaus

I'm getting old and my brain is frazzled by trying to grasp why the nadir footprint of a Merlin in a spherical pano would change size depending on sensor type and focal length and lens type of the lens used to shoot the pano.

I didn´t say "the Nadir footprint" - i said: "the Nadir".

That means that the base of the head - aka "the Nadir" in this case - with a fisheye is different from a, let´s say, 20mm rect. lens. Depends on how steep your downlook-angle is set.

Klaus
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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:39 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:You CAN do indoor panos using the Merlin very well. I suggest to use a 20mm lens on FX.
This way the Nadir is smaller than it is with a fisheye.

Klaus

I'm getting old and my brain is frazzled by trying to grasp why the nadir footprint of a Merlin in a spherical pano would change size depending on sensor type and focal length and lens type of the lens used to shoot the pano.

I didn´t say "the Nadir footprint" - i said: "the Nadir".

That means that the base of the head - aka "the Nadir" in this case - with a fisheye is different from a, let´s say, 20mm rect. lens. Depends on how steep your downlook-angle is set.

Klaus

I did an experiment.

Two panos shot with Merlin+Papywizard and DX body.

Pano 1 - using Nikon 10.5mm fisheye (7 images)

Pano 2 - using 35mm rectlinear lens (92 images)

I think you'll agree that the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano with the 35mm lens is not smaller than the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano shot with the 10.5mm fisheye?




Last edited by mediavets on Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:35 pm

mediavets wrote:I think you'll agree that the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano with the 35mm lens is not smaller than the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano shot with the 10.5mm fisheye?

I think you´ll agree that the Merlin is a preferable device for shooting with fisheyes indoors then?

It´s quite a time ago when i used it for that - and when i decided the footprint is too big for me. I don´t record anything i think at any time - so sorry, when i was wrong with what i said regarding the Merlin´s Nadir. . . .

The problem is that the rotation-axis is in the center of the base - while it´s preferable to have it off-centered for getting a steeper downlook-angle . . . which provides a smaller footprint. With ANY lens.
The other problem is that the vertical arm isn´t high enough to provide a steeper downlook-angle.

That´s the reason the Merlin provides a very big footprint compared to other heads.

Klaus
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by lumelix » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:14 pm

Hi all
@Andrew: You should really clean up this room in the next days ;)

I have looked at the Merlin also in more details. The biggest problem in my opinion is the small distance from the vertical axis to the mounting plate (.
The distance is too small for larger DSLR or lenses to be mounted centrally over the vertical axis. To do this, the device must be modificated massively.
In this post there are several user modifications of the mounting plate or adapter:
http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Merlin-Orion-Papywizard_users_feedback#Configuration_3
But this is not for everyone!
Regards
Martin

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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:40 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:I think you'll agree that the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano with the 35mm lens is not smaller than the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano shot with the 10.5mm fisheye?

I think you´ll agree that the Merlin is a preferable device for shooting with fisheyes indoors then?

I'd prefer to use a manual pano head for that.

It´s quite a time ago when i used it for that - and when i decided the footprint is too big for me.

It's quite large... if it was the only pano head I had I would probably limit the VFOV in the tour viewer to hide it.

The problem is that the rotation-axis is in the center of the base - while it´s preferable to have it off-centered for getting a steeper downlook-angle . . . which provides a smaller footprint. With ANY lens.

Yes.
The other problem is that the vertical arm isn´t high enough to provide a steeper downlook-angle.

Very much the case - but then it wasn't designed as a robotic pano head.

Yet it still offers a lot of 'bang-for-your-buck' if you can accept its limitations.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:55 pm

lumelix wrote:I have looked at the Merlin also in more details. The biggest problem in my opinion is the small distance from the vertical axis to the mounting plate (.
The distance is too small for larger DSLR or lenses to be mounted centrally over the vertical axis. To do this, the device must be modificated massively.

Yes, it is quite limited on that dimension and not really adjustable on that axis. But then it was never designed as a robotic pano head.

Of course it's not essential mount the camera centrally over the vertical axis if shooting a distant landscape partial pano with along focal length lens, the sort of scenario where there are real benefits in using a robotic head over a manual head.

Many camera/lens combinations cannot be mounted at the NPP with out modifications to the mount but then we've already discused why it's not ideally suited to shooting spherical panos of interiors, which is the scenario where it's essential to mount the camera/lens at the NPP. But my ancient Nikon D40 fits perfectly with no modifications, as do some XXXD Canon DSLRs.

If the dimension from the base of the camera to the centre of the lens mount is 40mm or less, AND the max. diameter of the lens barrle is 80mm or less, then you can mounte camera/lens with out mods. centrally over the vertical axis of rotation in portrait orientation.

In this post there are several user modifications of the mounting plate or adapter:
http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Merlin-Orion-Papywizard_users_feedback#Configuration_3
But this is not for everyone!

No, definitely not for everyone.

Of course in the beginning the Merlin/Papywizard project was very much for enthusiastic hobbyists and wasn't an 'off-the-shelf' item and people who got involved at that time expected to have to make mods, seek out components form multiple sources, do a bit of soldering and so on, and enjoyed that sort of thing.

By the time Kolor and SkiVR later sought to make it available to the 'masses' as a 'plug-n-play' item with the Panogear 'package' I believe there were already some 200 users who had assembled systems themselves.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:02 pm

mediavets wrote:Yet it still offers a lot of 'bang-for-your-buck' if you can accept its limitations.

Yes - that´s what i always state.

Klaus
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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:47 pm

Andrew being 100 percent wright wrote:I think you'll agree that the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano with the 35mm lens is not smaller than the size of the 'footprint' of the Merlin mount at the nadir in the pano shot with the 10.5mm fisheye?

If the Nadir (or the Nadir footprint) would be smaller with a FE as compared to a 2000mm lens (no Klaus i'm not going to use the Keck telescope to demonstrate this ;)) one of these lenses should give a distorted Nadir region. The trick is that no matter what lens you use you always get exactly the same outcome shooting a sphere, since a sphere is a sphere is a sphere, a 3 dimensional object governed by a center and a diameter, in fact 4 values are enough to describe the position and shape of any sphere in an Eulerian system (x,y, and z of the center and the diameter, c'est tout).

Greets, Ed (who has soldering on this mind these days......and not Georgia).

P.S. I like the newspaper with "The Royal Baby" and the portraits of Will and Kate.....without the baby.....and I like the way you "decorated" the room....reminds me of an interview with my promotor Prof. Dr. Hans Bloemendal (as of this time probably the oldest publishing biochemist) about 25 years ago....he greeted me with a broad gesture....Ed...dig out a chair and have a seat.
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