Autopano Giga 3 stitch problem - information missing!  

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Artisan New
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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:36 pm

Well, I found out that this is more or less the correct .XML, using the lens paramters and guessing what has happened.

It started shotting a horizon viewing angle/2 and it shot till horizontal 360-(horizontal viewing angle/2) thus NOT creating any overlap between the left and the right border of the panorama......that means in principle you're screwed (big time). As Andy corrected their seens to be some half baked way (or fully baked) way of getting custom presets into this software but frankly I would not even try :-).

This is the .xml I made:<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<papywizard version="c">
<header>
<general>
<title>
25 sphere import
</title>
<gps>
Here goes the location
</gps>
<comment>
Generated by Papywizard 2.1.21
</comment>
</general>
<shooting mode="preset">
<headOrientation>
down
</headOrientation>
<cameraOrientation>
portrait
</cameraOrientation>
<stabilizationDelay>
0.5
</stabilizationDelay>
<counter>
032
</counter>
<startTime>
2012-08-04_13h14m38s
</startTime>
<endTime>
2012-08-04_13h20m27s
</endTime>
</shooting>
<camera>
<timeValue>
0.5
</timeValue>
<bracketing nbPicts="1"/>
<sensor coef="1.6" ratio="3:2"/>
</camera>
<lens type="rectilinear">
<focal>
10.0
</focal>
</lens>
<preset name="10mm sphere"/>
</header>
<shoot>
<pict bracket="1" id="1">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h14m43s
</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="36,8"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="2">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h14m45s
</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="84.5"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="3">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h14m48s
</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="132.2"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="4">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h14m50s
</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="180.0"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="5">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h14m53s
</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="227.7"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="6">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h14m56s
</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="275.5"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="7">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h14m59s
</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="323.2"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="8">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m01s
</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="323.2"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="9">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m04s
</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="275.5"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="10">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m16s
</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="227.7"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="11">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m18s
</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="180.0"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="12">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m20s
</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="132.2"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="13">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m22s
</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="84.5"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="14">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m24s
</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="36.8"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="15">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m26s
</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="36.8"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="16">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m28s
</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="84.5"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="17">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m30s
</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="132.2"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="18">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m32s
</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="180.0"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="19">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m34s
</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="227.7"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="20">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m36s
</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="275.5"/>
</pict>
<pict bracket="1" id="21">
<time>
2012-08-04_13h15m38s
</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="323.2"/>
</pict>
</shoot>
</papywizard>

Then I asked APP/APG to listen to the .XML and managed to convince it to find as few points as it could.....and no matter how good the lens is Klaus on a white in white ceiling finding control points never will be easy and you have to have overlap between all your photo's and not between most of them, right? Then I took the liberty of editing CP manually (bad once out, good once in) and let it recalculate a few times....I got the stitch error down to 5 (which is way to high) so I guess you should do 2 things now.

1) Either get a good shooting pattern into Panoshoot a 4 8 4 pattern as advised by the VR site mentioned earlier would be a start. Now I'm waiting for parts to arrive from Conrad (for my own controler and I like a challenge, so who knows). Or just buy German and in this case that would be the T&C controler (maybe a bit slower but from the get go suited for this task).

2) Get the NNP point optimized....it a painstaking task but there is no way round it. The centre of the lens has to be positioned exactly over the center of rotation of the Panogear (and for some people that means adapting the Panogear with a new Crowndisk in order to have enough "room" to do that). If that is sorted out you have to set the correct hight (usually the camerabracket is made in such a way that this is dealt with by the hardware) and most importantly the correct distance from the camera to the centre of rotation in order to get the NNP point 100% exact through the centre of all rotations. In this you can't be to precise. If you do this correctly APP/APG in principle has to only use the lens parameters to do the warping and corrections but it does not need control points (they are only used to calculate the warp so even photo's that don't have control points can be stitched on position alone).

You see, in the photo I show the only problem remaining and that is not caused by NNP problems but simply by no overlap between the images.

Greets, Ed.


Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:47 pm

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhh, someone is using CSV formating in 2013, that is SOOOOO 1990 th............................now if they would be as kind as to provide a dataformat I could hack a file like that faster then you can throu a spitball smack between the eyes of the batter, but without it I'm guessing.

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:48 pm

Artisan New wrote:Well, I found out that this is more or less the correct .XML, using the lens paramters and guessing what has happened.

It started shotting a horizon viewing angle/2 and it shot till horizontal 360-(horizontal viewing angle/2) thus NOT creating any overlap between the left and the right border of the panorama......that means in principle you're screwed (big time).

I 'saw' that too in the Control Points Editor but didn't really take it in - old age is a dreadul handicap. :(


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:53 pm

Artisan New wrote:Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhh, someone is using CSV formating in 2013, that is SOOOOO 1990 th............................now if they would be as kind as to provide a dataformat I could hack a file like that faster then you can throu a spitball smack between the eyes of the batter, but without it I'm guessing.

Greets, Ed.

This was all I could find - from the Panoshoot developer.

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p116331-2013-05-14-21-17-07#p116331
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:12 pm

Yeah, now lets make this file (by the way Andrew I'm 50 next december time for a retirement home application?).

Recommended: N, 4 images every 90° at -60° pitch, 8 images every 45° at 0° pitch, 4 images every 90° at +60° pitch, no zenith image required

1,0,-60,
2,90,-60,
3,180,-60,
4,270,-60,
5,0,0,
6,45,0,
7,90,0,
8,135,0,
9,180,0,
10,225,0,
11,270,0,
12,315,0,
13,0,60,
14,90,60,
15,180,60,
16,270,60,

Now a csv should accept CR (carriage returns).....so they should also be in the file!

Greets, Ed.

The trouble of being dyslectic is that you're dyslectic in all languages.
Last edited by Artisan New on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by lumelix » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:17 pm

Hi James
This is the best result I can get with this images. It's clear that even with 21 images there are some gaps left.
Otherwise you can disable 7 of this images without loosing area, they aren't really needed.
Ed's pattern with totaly 16 images he has suggested is more than enough to cover the full sphere.

Ask the developer of this controller software to optimize the calculation for 360º-spheres. It's easy as pie.
Then have also a look about nodal point adjustment. With this lens it could be a little bit tricky.


Last edited by lumelix on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
Martin

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:14 pm

lumelix wrote:Ask the developer of this controller software to optimize the calculation for 360º-spheres. It's easy as pie.

Is it?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by marvinberry » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:58 pm

Hi all,

Haha no Andrew, that' my work partner peering around the bathroom door. This was our 5th test and by this point we weren't bothered if we were in shot - just testing the gear...again and again and again.

Thank you all for your help. This is a very complicated matter for me as a newbie. I will return to the manual once again. Can someone please advise what NPP and RMS is? (Again I'll retuen to the manual)

Sorry I must come across as really stupid with this but I wish to god I'd gone with a manual head now. This Panogear using Panoshoot is the worst investment I've ever bought into! Anyway, I'll try to stay positive and begin with learning more about Pitch and control points.

Quick question regarding leneses though. If you're using a lens i.e. 50mm - how do you set the focus? With the 10-22 obviously it has a large DOF so there's no worry. But if I were to shoot a hotel room with a shallower DOF with a lens that captures fewer degrees, how can the lens pick up on foreground AND background correctly? e.g. If the far wall was in focus how could a chair in the foreground also be in focus?

Thanks as always!!

James

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by klausesser » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:43 pm

marvinberry wrote:Hi all,

Haha no Andrew, that' my work partner peering around the bathroom door. This was our 5th test and by this point we weren't bothered if we were in shot - just testing the gear...again and again and again.

Thank you all for your help. This is a very complicated matter for me as a newbie. I will return to the manual once again. Can someone please advise what NPP and RMS is? (Again I'll retuen to the manual)

Sorry I must come across as really stupid with this but I wish to god I'd gone with a manual head now. This Panogear using Panoshoot is the worst investment I've ever bought into! Anyway, I'll try to stay positive and begin with learning more about Pitch and control points.

Quick question regarding leneses though. If you're using a lens i.e. 50mm - how do you set the focus? With the 10-22 obviously it has a large DOF so there's no worry. But if I were to shoot a hotel room with a shallower DOF with a lens that captures fewer degrees, how can the lens pick up on foreground AND background correctly? e.g. If the far wall was in focus how could a chair in the foreground also be in focus?

Thanks as always!!

James

James, i *strongly* suggest to use a fisheye for indoor shots - unless you
1) are VERY skilled
and
2) you shoot in rooms larger than 150qm.

I didn´t read which kind of camera you use.

If you use a DX camera: get a 10,5mm Nikon fisheye - you ca use it also o a Canon DX.

If you use a Canon fullframe camera: get a 2,8/15mm Canon fisheye or a 4/8-15mm Canon fisheye-zoom.
or
If you use a Nikon fullframe camera: get a 2,8/16mm Nikon fisheye.

The 10,5mm Nikon on a "crop" (DX) camera is a "fullframe-fisheye" - that means it covers 180° DIAGONALLY. Using a "fullframe" fisheye is the way of use i definitely suggest to do. With DX or with FX.

It also can be "shaved" - put the sun-shade away - to be used on a Fullframe-camera as a circular fisheye providing a full circle covering 180°.

Using a fulframe camera (FX) and a fullframe fisheye covering 180° diagonally proviudes the best image quality - but you need to do 2 more shots.

I use a 15mm fisheye on a 5D2 and a 16mm fisheye on a D800. In both cases i just need 5+1=6 shots to cover a sphere. The Nadir i retouch in Photoshop most of the time.
You also can leave it empty and paste in you logo or what else.

But MOST important: LEARN, LEARN , LEARN about panorama-photography and how to process/stitch your images.

Every other way causes trouble.

This i did indoor using a 15mm fishye on a 5D2: http://360impressions.de/Wohnung/ 6 shots (5+1) with the camera tilted -12° in the horizontal row, 1 Zenith shot +90°.

Stitching was almost completely automated. I shot the tour in about half an hour and had it stitched and tour-made in about 2 hours - including RAW-processing.

I used my Panoneed head (www.panoneed.com) equipped with the T&C controller, available also for Merlin/Panogear for 200.-€. The T&C is a straight and easy gadget - very small, needs no other
device and works absolutely reliable.

best and good luck, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:01 pm

marvinberry wrote:Hi all,

Haha no Andrew, that' my work partner peering around the bathroom door. This was our 5th test and by this point we weren't bothered if we were in shot - just testing the gear...again and again and again.Thank you all for your help. This is a very complicated matter for me as a newbie.

We were all newbies once, and I needed and got a lot of help at the outset from others.

Soon you'll look back and wonder why it all seemed so complicated - so hang in there.

Interior spherical panos are probably the most demanding to shoot and process. You should not expect to get great results immediately. There is a lot to learn.

I will return to the manual once again. Can someone please advise what NPP and RMS is? (Again I'll retuen to the manual)

NPP - No Parallax Point - the position of the camera/lens at which the camera/lens rotates around the entry pupil of the lens on both axes. It is essential that the camera/lens is mounted on the pano head aty the NPP when shooting spherical panos indoors otherwise it's almost impossible to get a good stitch.

You'll find a simple explanation of parallax and the No Parallax Point on this page:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-panoramas.htm

If you Google NPP you should be able to find links to ways of determiing the correct NPP setting for your Canon 7D and Canon 10-20mm lens combination.

RMS is a measure of 'goodness' of fit used by APP/APG when stitching panos. Not always easy to 'interpret' because smaller is not always better, although as a general rule of thumb you want it to be smaller rather than larger.

Sorry I must come across as really stupid with this but I wish to god I'd gone with a manual head now. This Panogear using Panoshoot is the worst investment I've ever bought into! Anyway, I'll try to stay positive and begin with learning more about Pitch and control points.

You should focus initially on learning how to set up an appropriate custom shooting pattern in the Panoshoot - as Ed described earlier. Without a suitable shooting pattern you are wasting your time.

Then learn how to get the XML data file onto your PC and use it with the Papywizard Import wizard in APP/APG.

Quick question regarding leneses though. If you're using a lens i.e. 50mm - how do you set the focus? With the 10-22 obviously it has a large DOF so there's no worry. But if I were to shoot a hotel room with a shallower DOF with a lens that captures fewer degrees, how can the lens pick up on foreground AND background correctly? e.g. If the far wall was in focus how could a chair in the foreground also be in focus?

Thanks as always!!

James

When shooting panos the conventional advice is to use manual focus always. Check out the theory and prcatice of using hyperfocal distances.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/hyperfocal-distance.htm

But it's not an big issue if shooting with fisheye lens which have massive depth of field which is one reason people choose them for shooting inmterior spherical panos.

As Klaus says everything would be a lot easier with a fisheye lens (and a manual pano head, or a different controller for your panogear/merlin mount) , but you have what you have and let's see if we can make it work for you.
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:35 pm

Yeps, all true but what you'll have to do is get the lens in the No Nodal Point first and with a standard Canon and 10-22 baby fat ***, bad *** lens that is definitly not (as in NO WAY JOSE) gonna happen, not even close. The Merlin/Panogear was developed and is soled as a solution for Gigapan not for VR spheres (and it's far from an ideal solution for both IMHO, reason why I build my own motorized panohead/controler). But that after I have learned the basics using a manual head. Reallt Right Stuf and Nodal Ninja do great work. Now they don't create .XML but that (as I have demonstrated, can be easily faked). Is all hopeless and are you stuck with a turd? Off course not it needs just a bit of the inventiveness that created out western civilisation in the first place. Inventiveness like displayed by this chappy:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p105729-2012-10-01-01-47-39

Now that may seem odd but it does the trick.....of course you will have to adapt the hight of the adapter to your camera. 3D printed stuff is rather stable these days (especially if printed by shapeways or a good fablab) and since thise baby has a lot of material it will do the trick, but you'de have to insist it is printed solid/filled since some software (slic3r) tends to save material over solid making solid structures hollow. The cost of such a bracket is about 80 to 120 dollars/euros depending on the material used (if I'm correct).

Greets, Ed.
Last edited by Artisan New on Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:49 pm

Artisan New wrote:Yeps, all true but what you'll have to do is get the lens in the No Nodal Point first and with a standard Canon and 10-22 baby fat ***, bad *** lens that is definitly not (as in NO WAY JOSE) gonna happen, not even close. Ed.

I don't know the NPP upper and lower 'rail' settings for the Canon 7D with Canon 10-20mm lens - do you?

IF the dimension from base of camera to centre of lens mount is 40mm or less, AND the diameter of the lens barrel is less than 80mm then you can mount the camera/lens at the NPP on the Panogear/Merlin mount without any modifications to the dovetail clamp or upper camera mount rail.

Update:

The dimension from base of the 7D to centre of the lens mount is 42mm according to this table:

http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:22 pm

A Andrew that is true I thought I knew it needed a so called seperation but I've checked and found no modifications in the list of happy Panogear owners so I'll guess that he'll be alright. Its the 5D that needed modifying not the 7D.

Greets, Ed
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:25 pm

Artisan New wrote:A Andrew that is true I thought I knew it needed a so called seperation but I've checked and found no modifications in the list of happy Panogear owners so I'll guess that he'll be alright. Its the 5D that needed modifying not the 7D.

Greets, Ed

Or maybe not....

The dimension from base of the 7D to centre of the lens mount is 42mm according to this table:

http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database

And the max. lens barrel diameter is 83.5mm according to this review:

http://photo.net/equipment/canon/efs_10-22/

But ... it might be possible to mount this combo at the NPP with a slightly 'slimmer' camera rail (and no others mods.) which could be made of wood for example:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p37570-2009-01-24-23-56-43?pid=37570#p37570
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:51 pm

Artisan New wrote:Yeps, all true but what you'll have to do is get the lens in the No Nodal Point first and with a standard Canon and 10-22 baby fat ***, bad *** lens that is definitly not (as in NO WAY JOSE) gonna happen, not even close.

?????

Artisan New wrote:The Merlin/Panogear was developed and is soled as a solution for Gigapan not for VR spheres

No. The Merlin/Orion was developed for the use in Astronomy. It´s very good in sequential panorama-photography too. If you set it up correctly. Hundreds of successful uses proved that already - Josef sold more than 400 units of teh T&C controller. Not a single one failed to do it´s duty.

I could use the Merlin from spot on by mountig my 20D on the short part of the rail which came with the head. Matched perfectly.
Later i modified the crown to be more flexible.

The head served me very well with lenses from 20mm to 300mm on the 20D. The only shortcome for me was: with lenses longer than 105mm it became very slow.

Klaus
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by lumelix » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:33 pm

mediavets wrote:Is it?

I think so
Regards
Martin

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:59 pm

lumelix wrote:
mediavets wrote:Is it?

I think so

This an online version of the best script I know of for producing spherical pano presets for shooting with rectilinear lenses using Papywizard.

http://exposedbykevin.com/PapySpheric/papyspheric.html

Do you offer an alternative?
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:44 am

Klaus the Merlin was developed for astronomy and more specific even Goto astronomy with a different controler (I know I owned a telescope until lightpolution made use of it impossible in the 1990th and it had an equatorial mount so I only needed one motor to power it) and Kolor and companies like T&C, Panoshoot, and others physically hacked it to be used for Gigapans (the non-technical term for sequential panorama's right) as introduced by the company of that same name in both their soft- and hardware. And when using long lenses and the right camera it works fine for that too (and the T&C controler is nice). But that is not the point. The point is that James is using a Panogear for VR spheres....and what did a certain Klaus Esser say about a Panogear and VR spheres?

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Re: Should i buy panogear???

skyvlasov wrote:

Hello,
I used to use Gigapan in conjunction with Nikon D5100 camera and Samyang 8mm lens. Unfortunately, Gigapan turned out to be incompatible with the camera and the lens (I shoot indoors). The main problem was that I failed to set a perfect nodal point and could not get 100% sharp panos as output. The nodal point could only be set in such a position that parts of Gigapan were in the picture, which is unacceptable.
I am thinking of buying Panogear instead. I am determined to keep using the camera and the lens. Would I have the same problem (setting nodal point 100% perfect) in Panogear?
P.S. How useful is the touchpad? How does it affect the shooting speed?

As Andrew stated already: the Merlin (Panogear) has a very big base due to it´s battery-holders. So using a fisheye-lens isn´t really wise on it. I also suggest to use a manual head instead IF you only use a fisheye.

For fisheyes on "robotic" heads you need one with a vertical axis very close to the rim of the base - this way the Nadir "hole" is very small because the camera´s/lense´s downlook-angle is very steep - look at the image:
the black plate in the center og the tripod is the Nadir-hole of my head.

These holes - aka "footprint" - easily can be retouched or merged with an extra Nadir image. But editing the very big black area which the Merlin produces using a fisheye is much more complicated - depending on the floor.
I used the Merlin in the beginning also with a fisheye - stopped doing so very soon.

best, Klaus

Nadir-hole of a 35mm lens on a Panoneed head (forget the camera-bag wink )......

Now that is is absolute true but in your first post in this thread you advice James to invest in a Fisheye and a TC controller and you do not mention the big Nadir which you DO mention in a post about the Panogear of which I took the liberty of quoting (as you do so liberatly yourself):

http://www.kolor.com/forum/t16858-should-i-buy-panogear

And in order to see the nadir (for James looking down coming from arabic nathir meaning "the opposite" as opposed to zenith (also derived from arabic but less clearly), I made this picture...of the Nadir, mind you it would be a lot bigger with a complete 360 foto which this isn't of course, due to user error not helped by software.

Greets, Ed.


Last edited by Artisan New on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:05 am

And to Andrew,

No, maybe except a T&C controler that also calculates patterns....but I've found the site you mention to be quite adequat, I use the python scipt directly but that is inconsequential.

In fact the FE pattern to me is sort of black art, when shooting FE I use mostly a 6 x -10 + 1 x 90 (or 1 x -90) or a 2 x 4 AT -30 and + 30 (twisted 45 degrees) which I also tried succesfull....and sometime one stitches perfectly and sometime the other. Sometimes one stitches perfectly in APP and sometimes in PTgui.....and I've so far did not find that much logic in it (now I have not looked at the logic mind you), but I guess it's what in the frames that counts. If you have a small interior space like an elevator cabin you have relatively large grey area's, now that can be shot using a FE but you have to take notice of the boundaries of the cabin wall/roof/floor/door etc. and get them on the edges of the individual frames. In cases like that I shoot several patterns to hedge my chances.

Greets, Ed.
Last edited by Artisan New on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:36 am

Klaus wrote:The only shortcome for me was: with lenses longer than 105mm it became very slow.

Klaus, I don't understand this behavior since when using shorter lenses the head travel time versus the photo shooting time should increase. When using a 105 you make 312 images for which the head has to travel 12 x 360 + 1 x 90 + 1 x 180 = 4590 degrees, for a FE you shoot 7 photos for which the head travels 90 + 100 + 360 degrees = 550 degrees. Now per photo that is 4590/312 = 14.711 degrees traveled per photo shot....while using a FE you have 550/7 = 76.6 degrees per photo shot. So using the longer lens actually means taking less travel time per photo if I'm doing my math right (and you are welcome to check these). Now in absolute time you talking the truth since it will take longer....but relative it's quicker.

Greets, Ed.
Last edited by Artisan New on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Artisan New » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:40 am

Klaus Esser wrote:But MOST important: LEARN, LEARN , LEARN about panorama-photography and how to process/stitch your images.

That is correct and I would like to add,

"And never stop learning"

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:40 am

Artisan New wrote:
Klaus wrote:The only shortcome for me was: with lenses longer than 105mm it became very slow.

Klaus, I don't understand this behavior ........

Greets, Ed.

As I understand it, it's to do with how the Papywizard software determines the position of the head relative to the desired target position. Perhaps something similar is true with the T&C Touch controller too.

I read that Panoshoot ofers a user-configurable trade off between speed and precision/accuracy.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:22 am

Artisan New wrote:Klaus the Merlin was developed for astronomy and .... Kolor and companies like T&C, Panoshoot, and others physically hacked it to be used for Gigapans (the non-technical term for sequential panorama's right) as introduced by the company of that same name in both their soft- and hardware.

Greets, Ed.

This may be a little off-topic, so you have been warned...

A little history...

The Merlin/Orion astro-telescope mount - marketed under the name Panogear by Kolor - is not 'physically hacked' it's a standard off-the-shelf item, although Kolor markets it with a simple third-party Lithium Ion battery upgrade kit and an additional camera rail.

http://www.opticstar.com/Run/Nature/Nat-Supports.asp?p=0_13_4_10_100

http://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/product.html?info=727&x3358b=dulqgp78s6coi1rn6q67kholr1

Long before Kolor, with SkiVR, put together the original Panogear 'package' Frederic Mantegazza figured out (reverse engineered) enough of the Merlin/Orion mount serial communicatiions protocol to develop the free Open Source cross-platform Papywizard software to control the mount via a Buetooth wireless, or a wired, serial link for use a robotic pano photography head and many people put their own setups together piecemeal. The Merlin + Papywizard combination continues to offer the most 'bang-per-buck' of any robotic pano head.

http://www.papywizard.org/

Later Josef G. developed the alternative Touch Controller marketed by T&C, and later by Kolor and SkiVR, along with a range of related accessories which were also marketed SkiVR, and by Kolor for while.

http://www.typeandcolour.de/index.php?ln=en&tp=hhc_home

Claude VanHemmens did a lot of work to develop a series of packaged TLL-Bluetooth adapters for the Merlin/Orion/Panogear mount culminating in the Deltawave PapyMerlin BT adapter available today (although sadly no longer marketed by Kolor).

http://www.papymerlin.com/interface-%C3%A9lectronique/

Panoshoot is the most recently developed controller for the Merlin/Orion/Panogear mount, it is marketed by its developers in the USA and by Kolor.

http://www.panoshoot.com/

Papywizard has always supported two styles of pano shooting. Mosaic mode which shoots a regular matrix of images, like the Gigapan robotic heads, that is designed to be used for shooting partial panos with a desired pano FOV of less that 360 x180. And Preset mode which shoots an arbitrary user-determined pattern of images designed for shooting spherical 360x180 panos. The Gigapan robots can only shoot regular grid patterns, and for this and other reasons are not suited to shooting spherical panos.

A key capability/feature of Papywizard was/is its ability to record the shooting position co-ordinates, and some other related data, in an XML format data file - which the Gigapan robots don't do. Kolor devised a means of utilising this data to assist the stitcher to place images, even those that were essnetially 'featureless' - a frequent occurence when shooting landscape scenes with longer focal length lenses - and which would otherwise have been left out of the stitch.

The T&C controller implemented a similar capability, and Seitz later added the capability to its VRDrive2 (which now has its own Import wizard), as has Panoshoot. I read that PTGui is now also able to utliise Papywizard-compatible XML format data files.


Last edited by mediavets on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by marvinberry » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:13 am

Thanks guys, although I chip in less frequently than yourselves, I am reading all of your comments and trying to take it in. It's one hell of a maths class!! I'm out of the country from tomorrow for 3 days and I will most certainly be without internet connection (don't ask!) - but just wanted to let you know that I haven't run away! My partner will be going through this over the weekend (good luck to him and fingers crossed) so lets see what happens! Many thanks to you all for your kind assistance!

James

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by lumelix » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:17 am

mediavets wrote:This is an online version of the best script I know of for producing spherical pano presets for shooting with rectilinear lenses using Papywizard.
http://exposedbykevin.com/PapySpheric/papyspheric.html
Do you offer an alternative?

Hi Andrew
This is not necessary. That you have shared us a link to an "online"-calculator is the best proof that it is easy as pie ;)
I assume that the developer of the Panoshoot can also programming this simple spherical calculation.
But what should he do first is to correct this gap between start and end point, this is the most simple thing.

I would do this "calculation" as a simple set of different cases, depending of the FOV of the used lens. From 180º-fisheye up to
50mm prime, there are only a few meaningful patterns to use.
The reason I mention this is because James now HAS this Panoshoot controller and should look at the problems with the manufacturer.
So that he can therefore usefully work finally with it. It is not really helpful if we recommend him other equipment that he hasn't.
I'm convinced that, with some improvements and experience, he can work very well with his equipment.
Regards
Martin

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