Tips to correct entrance pupil offset?  

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Redmar
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Tips to correct entrance pupil offset?

by Redmar » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:36 am

Hi,

We just finished a shoot of 16 different 360 panoramas for a virtual tour. When we got back at the office we found out that the entrance pupil setting was 3,5 mm off. It should have been 85 mm but all the photos where taken at 88,5 mm.

Is there a way to (easy) correct this error we made in Autopano Giga? The default render performs quite well, the ceilings and top of the pictures are misalligned.

We hope somebody can give us advice!

Best regards,
Redmar

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mediavets
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by mediavets » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:58 am

Welcome to the forum...

Redmar wrote:Hi,

We just finished a shoot of 16 different 360 panoramas for a virtual tour. When we got back at the office we found out that the entrance pupil setting was 3,5 mm off. It should have been 85 mm but all the photos where taken at 88,5 mm.

Was this an upper rail settiing mistake?

Were you shooting with a fisheye lens?

Is there a way to (easy) correct this error we made in Autopano Giga? The default render performs quite well, the ceilings and top of the pictures are misalligned.

We hope somebody can give us advice!

Best regards,
Redmar

You might try a different stitching program?

One might be more 'tolerant' than another.

Or you might have to swallow your pride and go back and shoot them all again. Perhaps the dog ate your homework? :/
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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klausesser
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by klausesser » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:59 am

Redmar wrote:Hi,

We just finished a shoot of 16 different 360 panoramas for a virtual tour. When we got back at the office we found out that the entrance pupil setting was 3,5 mm off. It should have been 85 mm but all the photos where taken at 88,5 mm.

Is there a way to (easy) correct this error we made in Autopano Giga? The default render performs quite well, the ceilings and top of the pictures are misalligned.

We hope somebody can give us advice!

Best regards,
Redmar

It´s a bit much offset for indoor-shots. Which focal length did you use?

If you used a fisheye there should be no big issue - you "just" need to do manual correction and optimization.

After all there´s Photoshop for retouching stitch-errors . . . . :cool:

Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by klausesser » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:01 pm

mediavets wrote:One might be more 'tolerant' than another.

There´s no program which is more tolerant than APG.

Of course it can be done in PTGui - with some skills in using it . . . :cool:

Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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Redmar
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by Redmar » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:50 pm

mediavets wrote:Welcome to the forum...

Thank you, and also for all the quick replies!

mediavets wrote:Was this an upper rail settiing mistake?

Were you shooting with a fisheye lens?

Yes, it was an upper rail setting mistake; the upper rail was adjusted during transporation... Al the photos were shot with a 15 mm fisheye on a full frame body.

mediavets wrote:You might try a different stitching program?

One might be more 'tolerant' than another.

Or you might have to swallow your pride and go back and shoot them all again. Perhaps the dog ate your homework? :/

We're quite new with Autopano Giga and we hope there is a way to correct this. The option of the dog won't work; the client knows we haven't got one ;)

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by mediavets » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:28 pm

Redmar wrote:We're quite new with Autopano Giga and we hope there is a way to correct this. The option of the dog won't work; the client knows we haven't got one ;)

If you want to make one image set available for download -preferab;ly as a ZIP file - then I expect there are a few here who will be willing to try and stitch it and to see what's possible.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Redmar » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:36 pm

mediavets wrote:If you want to make one image set available for download -preferab;ly as a ZIP file - then I expect there are a few here who will be willing to try and stitch it and to see what's possible.

Thank you very much for the offer and tip! The panoramas were shot in a factory and the photos have to go through a screening process first before they can be made publicly available (to be sure there isn't any privileged information visible). So we won't be a able to post them in a ZIP.

We'll try to fix it with the photos we've got, as I understand this should be possible in Autopano Giga because everything was shot with a fisheye lens? We were hoping that there was a setting like: upper rail is off 3,5 mm on all photos ;)

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by mediavets » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:49 pm

Redmar wrote:
mediavets wrote:If you want to make one image set available for download -preferab;ly as a ZIP file - then I expect there are a few here who will be willing to try and stitch it and to see what's possible.

Thank you very much for the offer and tip! The panoramas were shot in a factory and the photos have to go through a screening process first before they can be made publicly available (to be sure there isn't any privileged information visible). So we won't be a able to post them in a ZIP.

We'll try to fix it with the photos we've got, as I understand this should be possible in Autopano Giga because everything was shot with a fisheye lens? We were hoping that there was a setting like: upper rail is off 3,5 mm on all photos ;)

Sadly there's no such easy option.

How about shooting another pano with the same 'osffset' on the upper rail and then making those images available for download so that we can try and work out a way of helping you solve your problems with the private image sets?

....


What pano head did you use?

What shooting pattern did you use? With yiour camera/lens setup I would either shoot:

1. 6-around at about -15 degrees pitch plus one or two (or even three) up at about +65 degrees pitch.

Or

2. A row of 6-around at about -15 degrees picth and another row of 6-around at about +50 degrees pitch.

...........

If the NPP is 'off' then you'll need to get into the Control Points Editor I expect.

Try removing CPs that are on subject areas closet to the camera and check that you have CPs all along the entire overlap area add some if you can, APP/APG tends to cluster CPS around the 'equator' of overlapping images.

You might try enabling the Multiple viewpoint option too and changing the ransac model seting from Similarity to Homography - see screenshots.




Last edited by mediavets on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:12 pm

I recalled that Hans Nyberg once demonstrated (on another forum, using a different stcithibng program) that the upper rail setting is not that ctrical (partly because fisheye lenses have no single entry pupil).

So just by way of an experiment I moved my upper rail setting by 5mm (further away from the pivot point) and shot a pano in a room that's about 3m x 4m using a DX sensor body with a 10.5mm Fishsye - essentially the same configuration as your fullframe sensor with a 15mm fishsye.

And with no Controlpoint editing the stitched pano is not too bad - a few stitch errors but nothing that couldn't easily be edited out.

So I suspect any stitch errors you have are not (entirely) the result of your upper rail setting being just 3.5mm out when shooting in aspec in a space the size of factory.

Check your links and control points using the Control Points Editor.
Last edited by mediavets on Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Redmar » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:32 pm

@mediavets; once again thank you very much for your help! As I said, 360 photography is quite new for us and we hope that we can help others in the nearby future as well!

We shot the panoramas like this:
6 around at 0 degrees pitch, 1 x zenith, 2 x nadir. In our previous panaromas with the correct upper rail this method resulted in perfect stitches without any adjustments.

In the next few days we'll try to find out how to correct the stitch with the control points as you suggested and we'll post our findings here. For now; once again thank you all very much for your help!

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by mediavets » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:42 pm

Redmar wrote:@mediavets; once again thank you very much for your help! As I said, 360 photography is quite new for us and we hope that we can help others in the nearby future as well!

We shot the panoramas like this:
6 around at 0 degrees pitch, 1 x zenith, 2 x nadir. In our previous panaromas with the correct upper rail this method resulted in perfect stitches without any adjustments.

In the next few days we'll try to find out how to correct the stitch with the control points as you suggested and we'll post our findings here. For now; once again thank you all very much for your help!

Good luck:

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Autopano_Giga_-_Panorama_Editor_-_Control_Points_Editor
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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klausesser
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by klausesser » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:40 pm

mediavets wrote:I recalled that Hans Nyberg once demonstrated (on another forum, using a different stcithibng program) that the upper rail setting is not that ctrical (partly because fisheye lenses have no single entry pupil).

So just by way of an experiment I moved my upper rail setting by 5mm (further away from the pivot point) and shot a pano in a room that's about 3m x 4m using a DX sensor body with a 10.5mm Fishsye - essentially the same configuration as your fullframe sensor with a 15mm fishsye.

And with no Controlpoint editing the stitched pano is not too bad - a few stitch errors but nothing that couldn't easily be edited out.

So I suspect any stitch errors you have are not (entirely) the result of your upper rail setting being just 3.5mm out when shooting in aspec in a space the size of factory.

Check your links and control points using the Control Points Editor.

Andrew - that´s all very much related to the resolution used!

I realized that with a D800 even using a fisheye provides such a deep zoom @100% that i can see stitch-errors which i never would have seen with my Canon 20D´s provided resolution.

The same becomes even much more extreme when i use 35mm or 85mm indoors - ONE MILLIMETER mismatch on ANY rail provides visible stitch-errors viewed @100%.

So it´s DEFINITLY important to be as precise as ever you can with the aligning of the NPP - or do it the Photoshop-retouching way.

APG is rather tolerant with compensating a misaligned setup - but not really much! :cool:

best, Klaus
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Artisan New
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by Artisan New » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:04 am

1) Adrew is right about the entrance pupil of Fisheye lenses for being depended ont the angle of entrance of the lightbeam. Due to the design of a Fisheye the nodal point (or better the NNP) can shift quite a bit resulting in a shifting nodal point for different shooting angles...if you shoot 6 shots you have a different overlap then when you shoot 4 shots....so your nodal point changes (believe it or not).

http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Laseresult.html

2) Klaus is right about the nodal point being critical to shooting with a fisheye lens (the shorter the lens the more critical the nodal point is since usually a shorter lens catches more foreground background difference so more chance for paralax difference, then when you shoot with a 400 mm tele from a mountain pass with a clear field of view)

3) Having said that 3.5 mm off is a lot but not that much of a lot. Now APP has a nice editor to correct a lot and some settings that can help as well. But Kolor has cleverly hidden those settings a bit, but in this case you need to play with them.

Now I'm always a bit sloppy so I needed some fallback in my pano's...all recommendation made sence at some point.

Step 1: Importing

- Improvement to be made:

1) Don't import the zenith AND the nadir....(I hope I'm not talking Arab here?)....leave the nadir out the calculations. That way APP/APG has more "room" to play with the remaining pictures. This works only if you have shot using the 6, 1, 1 shooting pattern (I drop the nadir unless the nadir has information I desperatly need, like a non-repeating carpet).

2) Create a fake .XML using Papywizard (analyse th .XML it's no rocket science) and recreate the shooting pattern used....it's no silver bullet but importing with a fake .xml sure saved my day sometimes. Of course if you shoot using a Panoneed (or any of it's competition) you would have had an .xml (right Klaus).

Step 2: Detecting the Pano and editing the Pano

1) I know this sounds silly but actually getting the images in the proper orientation helps....my camera used a lens bound orientation sensor an I used a mechanical SamYang FE so I had to turn all images 90 degrees before I hit the detect button (except the zenith of course). As I said it's alchemy but I received marginally better results in doing so.

2) In tab Group Settings - Detecttion set Detection Quality to "High" and leave control points at default.

3) In tab Group Settings - Optimilisation set Optimalisation preset to "Fisheye" and "Lens distortion corrections" at "Enabled" and "Focal calculation" at "Force Identic", in order to stop APP/APG get stuck in senceless focal calculations (in which it gets stuck because the NNP is slightly off) and set distrotion calculation at "Automatic" or even "Force different", set the distortion to "Second order". This gives APP slighly more play when distorting the images (at least thats my theory and it's alchemy remmember).

4) In tab Group Settings - Preferd projection to Spherical (this can be done later in the editor but I've noticed some improvements when using this setting earlier). Set prefered extend to "Maximum projection range".

5) Go to the image properties window and check that the correct lens is detected for all the images and that the lenstype is set to Fisheye...this does happen automatically if the camera detects the FE but if you use an old mechanical lens (or a new SamYang) you should set this manually (do not forget this).

Press the green Detect button and pray to saint Steve if you are an Applelite (which me the heretic is not).

After a while you are rewarded with a panorama in the right window of the program....now it is time to press "edit".

1) Check the global RMS.....in my case.....I get a 3.26 which is okay for a FE (but unacceptable for a longer lens). This is due to the migrating character of the NNP using FE's and APP/APG is quite happy to stich a pano using that setting.....if this is way high, your sort of up the creek without a paddle so lets get a paddle....press the button with the little starfield (the control points editor button). The control point editor window opens. Select the first shot of the row and the last (in my case the 7th) using shift to select all of them. You see and list of RMS (Root Mean Square's ) of all the links APP/APG has come up with.....some a great, some are not so great (mine at the moment range from 1,77 to 3,90 and that is reasonable but not great (right Klaus?). So I click the control points tab in the same window to se the results of all the individual control points. The best control points have a RMS of 0.05 the worst an RMS of 8.4......Now I select everything >= to 4.000 (using the shift key) and then I take the plunge and press <delete>. Then you have two buttons to press....

a) The Optimization button (BAD, BAD button)....
b) The Quick Optimization button

At this point NEVER EVER EVER NEVER chose the first one.....since it can destroy all the work you just have done (even when manually reaganging CP's and manually shifting images around). I have wanted to wage war on the entire French population on more then on occasion when I started using APP and hours of work were distroyed by one little button, but luckyly for the French Audrey Tautou exists (and the Force de Frappe but that is of minor importance :)). Note to mr. Jenny an "Are you sure?" under this button would be nice (as in much appreciated and a reason to upgrade). And yes you can use the "Control-Z" button I found that out to ;-) after some (as in a lot of) wasted time and effort.

Use the Quick Optimization button and APP/APG does some magic.....it will adapt the warping parameters to the new settings. And as a result the good control points turn more gooder or even better. Great that is what we want....a quick fix without a lot of mannual hacking CP's right...well APP/APG provides....now if you have a global RMS of 1.99 (even Klaus would sort of like this, right Klaus?).

Then we pray to reverend Thorvald and press the little cogwheel.....the render settings menu appears....

Step 3: Rendering the Pano

In the render settings I leave everything as it is.....(this is an industrial complex right, so no sea in the picture, since if there was I would clicki the checkbox "Diamond Weighing" in order to blend waves a bit more (these pesky critters never pose when you want them to) and save a bit of trouble in the post editing (also this is alchemy, sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn't)....BTW it helps with fast moving clouds as well and even if there are no people or machines moving I would keep the "Anti ghost" settings because this setting also seems to a slightly better job of stitching....details that are not stiched correctly can be ghosted away.

Step 4: Render.....

Step 5: Check the render for defects....some will remain....if you are a bit sloppy....(in your case due to the lens not being possitioned correctly).....

First I drive the pano through KRPANO (buy at KRPANO.com or order with Panotour) in order to obtain 6 nice squares that are corrected in order to let straight lines run straight again....(use the Convert Sphere to Cube droplet.bat).....then I edit out the defects on the squares. Tedious work in your case since you have an allignment error to start with so I suspect a lot small errors , I use the Gimp Transformation - Perspective transform on local selections, and then correct the edges using the clone brush, but maybe Cowdung and Mud has come up with a more appropriate algoritm. After all the 6 squares have been treated and I don't edit defects that run over the border of the squares...you can recompose the Equirectilinear using the convert Cube to Sphere droplet.bat).

Some nifty editing on the equirecty to remove some "over the border defects" and hey, ready for sale, right....and well if you're worried about the final stitching quality remember what Google did to the Cologne cathedral.

http://www.google.com/intl/en/culturalinstitute/worldwonders/cologne-cathedral/

And be happy....

Greets, Ed.
Last edited by Artisan New on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lumelix
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by lumelix » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:57 am

Hi all
There is a most of time (from the professionals, because they don't work so) forgotten feature set in APG: "multible viewpoints".
But in this case with regular disalignment, this setting could help.
So my suggestion is to try out this setting and have a look at the result.

Btw: I use a D800 with FE16mm and have to set the (floating) nodalpoint really precise to get perfect results.
It's position depends on the used shooting pattern and so on the angle where the stitching happens.
Regards
Martin

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by klausesser » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:43 am

lumelix wrote:Hi all
There is a most of time (from the professionals, because they don't work so) forgotten feature set in APG: "multiple viewpoints".
But in this case with regular disalignment, this setting could help.
So my suggestion is to try out this setting and have a look at the result.

Good point, Martin!

best, Klaus
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Redmar
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Re: Tips to correct entrance pupil offset?

by Redmar » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:00 pm

Hi,
It's been a very long time since my previous post but I still would like to inform you guys that we were able to correct the problem with help of PTGUI. It seems that PTGUI is a bit more forgiving than Autopano.

We used the masking tool, control points and the feather option to fix it. Thanks again for all the great help and we're really getting the hang of it!

Best regards,
Redmar

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klausesser
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Re: Tips to correct entrance pupil offset?

by klausesser » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:41 pm

Redmar wrote:We used the masking tool, control points and the feather option to fix it.



I agree: the masking tool is a very useful option to fix stitch-errors easily.

Klaus


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