[APG 3.x Windows XP/32] APG 3.x and PTGui Pro ....  

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by AlexandreJ » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:01 pm

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WARNING: I did a huge cleaning of every post that didn't contained only technical stuff.
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by AlexandreJ » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:08 pm

mediavets wrote:The nadir area was one (obvious) example of the differences resulting from using APG 2.0.9, APG 3.0.7 and PTGui Pro 9.17.
Another area which showed a big difference was the image appearing on the LCD monitor on the desk.

This is a different anti-ghost choice. Doesn't seem better or worth for me that the other decision.

mediavets wrote:PTGui Pro and APG 2.0.9 showed a similar image; APG 3.0.7 showed a completeley different image.

In what area ? geometrical registration ? color fidelity ? antighost decision?

mediavets wrote:And most importantly both APG 2.0.9 and PTGui Pro 0.17 produced an apparently perfect stitch with default settings.
On the other hand APG 3.0.7 produced a far from perfect stitch and I was unable fully to resolve the stitch errors even with extensive control point editing. The stitched pano looks fine in the Editor preview but when rendered there are significant errors. This subject has been raised elsewhere and to date there doesn't seem to be an entirely satisfactory 'answer'/explanation.

I'm quite sure that the default focal length / lens type value is wrong and it explains often why 2.5+ engine doesn't stitch right at first time.

mediavets wrote:I noticed that PTGUi Pro seemed to auto detect CPs over a wider 'spread'/area in the overlaps, whereas APG 3.0.7 seemed to cluster CPs around the 'equator' of linked pairs of images even though there were excellent CP targets elsewhere along the overlap.
Some users have the impression that APG 3.x doesn't handle fused exposure images produced by Photomatix as well as it handles single exposure images, nor as well as APG 2.0.9 and PTGui Pro handle fused exposure images from Photomatix. Might this be the case?

Not the case, as it should behave the same. The issue is that photomatix especially doesn't transfer all exif information and it results in lost data that prevent a direct detection to work. You need to correct the exif information and then it works as if you used the input images directly.

mediavest wrote:The quality of the rendered image seemed much better with APG 2.0.9 and PTGui Pro 9.17 too, compared to the output from APG 3.0.7.

Sharpness ? color fidelity ? in what sense ?

mediavest wrote:Is this all the result of the new blender and rendering engine in APG 3.x?

The 3.x engine didn't really changed since 2.6. The new render engine has been introduced at this version and is just updated for fixes. No new algorithms in that area.

Note for Klaus: 3.0.7 didn't change anything in the stack detection / rendering. Stacks within autopano did work since a long time already.

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by mediavets » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:39 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:
mediavets wrote:PTGui Pro and APG 2.0.9 showed a similar image; APG 3.0.7 showed a completeley different image.

In what area ? geometrical registration ? color fidelity ? antighost decision?

Anti-ghost decision I think.

Crops from stitched panos

1. PTGui pro 9.17

2 APG 2.0.9

3. APG 3.0.7






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by klausesser » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:46 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:Note for Klaus: 3.0.7 didn't change anything in the stack detection / rendering. Stacks within autopano did work since a long time already.

Oops! :cool:

Might be something in the settings which i misinterpreted before!?

Anyway: it works now - even for me :D

best, Klaus
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by mediavets » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:59 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:
mediavets wrote:And most importantly both APG 2.0.9 and PTGui Pro 0.17 produced an apparently perfect stitch with default settings.
On the other hand APG 3.0.7 produced a far from perfect stitch and I was unable fully to resolve the stitch errors even with extensive control point editing. The stitched pano looks fine in the Editor preview but when rendered there are significant errors. This subject has been raised elsewhere and to date there doesn't seem to be an entirely satisfactory 'answer'/explanation.

I'm quite sure that the default focal length / lens type value is wrong and it explains often why 2.5+ engine doesn't stitch right at first time.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Where do we need to look to determine whether that might be the case?

And what do we do about it?

Destiny provide you with a link to her dropbox for this image set I understand.
.............

Here are the images settings values displayed for various versions of APG.

1. APG 2.0.9 - weird values because this version predates the Nikon D800 DSLR but the stitch is perfect.

2. APG 2.6.4 - stitch far from perfect.

3. APG 3.0.7 - stitch far from perfect.






Last edited by mediavets on Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Artisan New » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:09 pm

mediavets wrote:And most importantly both APG 2.0.9 and PTGui Pro 0.17 produced an apparently perfect stitch with default settings.
On the other hand APG 3.0.7 produced a far from perfect stitch and I was unable fully to resolve the stitch errors even with extensive control point editing. The stitched pano looks fine in the Editor preview but when rendered there are significant errors. This subject has been raised elsewhere and to date there doesn't seem to be an entirely satisfactory 'answer'/explanation.

I'm quite sure that the default focal length / lens type value is wrong and it explains often why 2.5+ engine doesn't stitch right at first time.

With all due respect I think that Andrew quite well knows what lens is used and how to set it. At least I know that I do (I use a SamYang 7.5 (or 7,5 if you are French) and that's what I entered in PTGui and thats what I entered in APP 2.6, so what reasons do you have to assume that Andrew is using the wrong lens parameters? You know the old saying Alexandre "to assume makes an *** of U and ME"? At least Klaus had the decency to blame memory usage (also nonsence as I've shown in the other thread)......and below you see the memory usage during a APP run, the lens settings and the render settings, see for yourself.

greets, Ed.






Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by mediavets » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:10 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:
mediavets wrote:I noticed that PTGUi Pro seemed to auto detect CPs over a wider 'spread'/area in the overlaps, whereas APG 3.0.7 seemed to cluster CPs around the 'equator' of linked pairs of images even though there were excellent CP targets elsewhere along the overlap.
Some users have the impression that APG 3.x doesn't handle fused exposure images produced by Photomatix as well as it handles single exposure images, nor as well as APG 2.0.9 and PTGui Pro handle fused exposure images from Photomatix. Might this be the case?

Not the case, as it should behave the same. The issue is that photomatix especially doesn't transfer all exif information and it results in lost data that prevent a direct detection to work. You need to correct the exif information and then it works as if you used the input images directly.

Below is the EXIF as read by Opanda EXIF reader from a Photomatiox fused esposure image from the set.

What appears to be missing from the EXIF, or requires to be corrected, that APG would require to produce a perfect stitch using APG 2.6.4 and/or APG 3.0.7?

Bear in mind that APG 2.0.9 produced a perfect stitch with the same image set; as did PTGui Pro 9.17.


Last edited by mediavets on Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Artisan New » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:11 pm

Good point Adrew, bear in mind as well I made the same point.....

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by mediavets » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:15 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:
mediavets wrote:The quality of the rendered image seemed much better with APG 2.0.9 and PTGui Pro 9.17 too, compared to the output from APG 3.0.7.

Sharpness ? color fidelity ? in what sense ?

I'm going to leave this to Destiny to answer in more detail - she's spent longer on this that I have.

My impression was that the PTGui Pro and APG 2.0.9 rendered images were 'cleaner', less noisy, with better colour and sharper.

But you have access to the image set so you could try and see for yourself.
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by mediavets » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:21 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:
mediavets wrote:Is this all the result of the new blender and rendering engine in APG 3.x?

The 3.x engine didn't really changed since 2.6. The new render engine has been introduced at this version and is just updated for fixes. No new algorithms in that area.

And that's why I went all the way back to 2.0.9 ... so I could compare the old 'engines' with the new 'engines'.

Like PTGui Pro 9.17, APG 2.0.9 produced a perfect stitch. APG 2.6.4 and 3.0.7 didn't.
Andrew Stephens
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by Artisan New » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:39 pm

mediavets wrote:
AlexandreJ wrote:
mediavets wrote:Is this all the result of the new blender and rendering engine in APG 3.x?

The 3.x engine didn't really changed since 2.6. The new render engine has been introduced at this version and is just updated for fixes. No new algorithms in that area.

And that's why I went all the way back to 2.0.9 ... so I could compare the old 'engines' with the new 'engines'.

Like PTGui Pro 9.17, APG 2.0.9 produced a perfect stitch. APG 2.6.4 and 3.0.7 didn't.

Andrew that particular Alexandre remark had Klaus's IP-adres :).....not yours....I guess. But hey were used to saying everything twice and three times. What I see in PTGui stitches and Autopano Pro regular (so files not toughed by the HDR bug) is a more homogenous rendering. If I stitch those damned Photomatix toughed files in APG at best the stitching is okay but the blending is far from homogenous. Especially in the zones covered by the vertical leg of the Panosaurus 2.0. You get a kind of blotchiness at least and at worst a true ghost image of the leg (see image to know what I'm referring as of the leg to and remember PTGui stitches this without a glitch). I have added 4 pictures of the different artefacts I'm presented with in the stitch....and remember, I'm using 7 .tif files blender in Photomatix as input......one thing it seems to be a contrast related....the more contrast between the arm and the suroundings the less problems I have. In broad daylight I can still see some slight problems but these are manageble or even ignorable, but in a gloomy lit space.....more then a fair share of problems.


Greets, Ed.










Last edited by Artisan New on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:48 am

Andrew Stephens
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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:50 am

Thanx, Andrew....I might buy a spraycan of paint and spray my Panosaurus white or shocking Pink.....with green Polkadots....I wonder wether that would solve the issue.....at least Kolor wouldn't have to reprogam....they just should send a complementary spraycan to each user :).

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:07 am

Well Alexandre and Andrew,

It does......it certainly does....I used Gimp to do the spraying (shocking pink indeed) and indeed much less artefacts....not none, but less.....only one bigger on and some small inconsistancies in the carpet structure...so things are getting more managable. Does this help you Alexandre?

Greets, Ed.
Last edited by Artisan New on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:16 am

I think I'm on to Destinies problems as, well......she's using a Nikon 10.5 FE on a D800....that will drop to DX mode. Now that is not how most people would use a D800....(terrible waste of sensor real estate) but it also might throw Kolor's algorithm of balance....maybe she should rent, borrow, steal or buy a FF 16 MM FE, they do about 800 dollars and about 500 to 600 second hand. But I'd try one first to see wether it clears the problem (and use the 10.5 on her D7000).....

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by lumelix » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:28 am

Hi Ed
Show us one image from photomatix of the example above.
Seems that there is really a lot of noise.
Regards
Martin

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by Destiny » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:51 am

Well Ed, I have said long ago in my other post that there might be an issue with APG getting confused with the fact I am using an FX camera with a DX lens... But.. I am using Photomatix images so that kills that theory, perhaps...

I do not know anyone with a 16mm fisheye and I am saving up to buy a New Mac so I cannot have it all. My 10.5 is a really nice lens.... ... I just tried rendering using Hans PC.. The stitching was a bit better with only one main error and one blur area.. I wonder if the rendering is RAM dependent.. When I buy a new Mac I will begin to use my 50mm which works on FX format..

Destiny..

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:51 am

Artisan New wrote:I think I'm on to Destinies problems as, well......she's using a Nikon 10.5 FE on a D800....that will drop to DX mode. Now that is not how most people would use a D800....(terrible waste of sensor real estate) but it also might throw Kolor's algorithm of balance....maybe she should rent, borrow, steal or buy a FF 16 MM FE, they do about 800 dollars and about 500 to 600 second hand. But I'd try one first to see wether it clears the problem (and use the 10.5 on her D7000).....

Greets, Ed.

I see no reason why APG 3.0.7 would be confused by using a D800 in DX mode.

PTGui Pro and APG 2.0.9 seem to have no problems with this image set.

Destiny uses a 10.5mm FE because she origibnally bought it to use with her D90.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:04 am

lumelix wrote:Hi Ed
Show us one image from photomatix of the example above.
Seems that there is really a lot of noise.

Martin I'm affraid to say that that is the Photomatix result an what you are seeing is no noise (these 4 shots are 100% shots no magnifications) and I see no noise, that is carpet :rolleyes:

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:06 am

mediavets wrote:
Artisan New wrote:I think I'm on to Destinies problems as, well......she's using a Nikon 10.5 FE on a D800....that will drop to DX mode. Now that is not how most people would use a D800....(terrible waste of sensor real estate) but it also might throw Kolor's algorithm of balance....maybe she should rent, borrow, steal or buy a FF 16 MM FE, they do about 800 dollars and about 500 to 600 second hand. But I'd try one first to see wether it clears the problem (and use the 10.5 on her D7000).....

Greets, Ed.

I see no reason why APG 3.0.7 would be confused by using a D800 in DX mode.

PTGui Pro and APG 2.0.9 seem to have no problems with this image set.

Destiny uses a 10.5mm FE because she origibnally bought it to use with her D90.

Okay, we can skip that thought to, you're right Andrew....

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:22 am

Artisan New wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Artisan New wrote:I think I'm on to Destinies problems as, well......she's using a Nikon 10.5 FE on a D800....that will drop to DX mode. Now that is not how most people would use a D800....(terrible waste of sensor real estate) but it also might throw Kolor's algorithm of balance....maybe she should rent, borrow, steal or buy a FF 16 MM FE, they do about 800 dollars and about 500 to 600 second hand. But I'd try one first to see wether it clears the problem (and use the 10.5 on her D7000).....

Greets, Ed.

I see no reason why APG 3.0.7 would be confused by using a D800 in DX mode.

PTGui Pro and APG 2.0.9 seem to have no problems with this image set.

Destiny uses a 10.5mm FE because she origibnally bought it to use with her D90.

Okay, we can skip that thought to, you're right Andrew....

Greets, Ed.

Might be interesting to shoot the same scene with the D90 and 10.5 FE and VRDrive in HDR mode and folow the same workflow and see the results?
Andrew Stephens
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:43 am

That would not be entirely possible.. The VR Drive HDR software works on the rang of the cameras and also I have set my ISO to 100, which is not possible with my D90....... Also, I do not think HDR will work with my D90 since it requires the use of a USB cable...

Destiny...

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by lumelix » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:47 am

Artisan New wrote:what you are seeing is no noise (these 4 shots are 100% shots no magnifications) and I see no noise, that is carpet

Ok, now I can see it. First I thought that this tripod-leg-ghost was caused by massive noise.

Btw: I'm using the D800 with the 16mm AF-Nikkor and haven't any problems with stitching accuracy. Normaly the rms is around 1.5 to 2.5 and no visible stiching errors occurs.
Regards
Martin

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by mediavets » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:49 am

lumelix wrote:
Artisan New wrote:what you are seeing is no noise (these 4 shots are 100% shots no magnifications) and I see no noise, that is carpet

Ok, now I can see it. First I thought that this tripod-leg-ghost was caused by massive noise.

Btw: I'm using the D800 with the 16mm AF-Nikkor and haven't any problems with stitching accuracy. Normaly the rms is around 1.5 to 2.5 and no visible stiching errors occurs.

Is this with single expsoure images or with Photomatix fusion processed bracketed exposures?
Andrew Stephens
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by Artisan New » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:52 am

You're a lucky guy Martin :)...but indeed did you use Photomatix?

Greets, Ed.
Olympus OM-D with HLD-6, Fuji GX680, Samyang 7.5, Olympus 9-18, Sigma 19, Panasonic 14-45, Nikon 50 1.4 on Novoflex with tripod mount, Nikon 80-200, Panasonic 45-200, Fujinon 135, Fujinon 80, Fujinon 65, Fujinon 50, Gitzo Gilux Reporter 2, Sirui Ballhead and Panosaurus 2.0 NNP adapter, Motorized Panohead of Canadian (ironware)/Dutch (electronics and software) construction.

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