Expanding Size of Pano (detection excessively overlaps)  

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by mediavets » Tue May 22, 2012 11:36 pm

jeradg wrote:And back to the original topic... Is there any way to spread out the images and increase the width within APP?

This is a completely meaningless question.

So forget it; clinging to these false ideas is not helping you.

If you shoot images that cover a full 360 degree HFOV (Horizontal FOV) with approx 25-30% overlap between adjacent images and stitch them properly then the result will be correct.

What you don't seem to understand is that it's not possible to have a spherical projection equirectangular (2:1 aspect ratio) pano image displaying a 360x180 FOV where all straight lines appear straight.

See these articles about image projections, they should aid your understanding:

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Understanding_Projecting_Modes

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-projections.htm
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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Wed May 23, 2012 12:07 am

jeradg wrote:This is probably true. Should I leave the same focus setting throughout the shoot or change it based on distance from objects/walls?

You should not change the focus during the shoot. Fisheye lenses have massive Depth Of Field - in other words everything from 1metre to infinity will be in focus if you have set the focus correctly. This is one of the advanatges of using fishey elnse for shooting panos rather than non-fisheye lense which have much shallower DOF.

Take some test shots to find the focus setting where an object about 1 meter from the camera is in sharp focus and that should be fine for all panos. The markings on the focus ring may be inaccurate so you need to take test shots.

Set the camera to manual focus and use the focus ring on the lens to focus.

With a fisheye lens it's essential that you have the camera/lens set at the No Parallax Point (NPP) - especially when shooting indoors with parts of the scene close to the camera - to achieve a good stitch. Are you confident that you have your camera/lens set at the NPP?

I'm not familar with the in-built HDR functionality of the D5100, but I suggest you don't use it until you are getting cosnistent results without it just using a single manually set exposure for all the images in the shoot. Let's learn to crawl before we try to run! Your challenge with a fully manual lens like yours will be to determine that manual exposure which is an appropriate compromise for the varying light levels around the scene; set the aperture at say f8 and then take some test shots to establish a suitable hutter speed.

I actually checked the coverage/overlap of the pictures with objects to ensure approx 1/3 - with the standard. When I first started, using the fisheye, I was shooting 4 (every 90°), which is probably a large part of the problem. I stuck with shooting 4 horizontal, 1 zenith, 1 nadir because I was getting well stitched results in APP. I would then delete the nadir because it had the tripod in it (and I would be cropping anyways).

4-around is not enough with your fisheye on the D5100 - to start with I recommend that you try 6-around at zero pitch (that 60 degree separations on the yaw axis) and forget about zenith and nadir for now if you don't need 180 degree VFOV for your project. Once you are getting consistent resukts then we can consider alternative shooting patterns to at least cover the zenith; you can always 'hide' the nadir using the PTP crop tool or by placing a nadir patch image or a logo over the nadir area.

All true. Luckily, we have defined top quality results as making a best effort with our in-house production of a tour that we can have continued control over as our facilities change. 5 months @ <10 hrs/week = a lot of progress and even more learning. The overall project cost including my pay is still less than we were quoted by some companies, all of which would require travel expenses since there are no tour companies local. Despite all my issues, which you now see are numerous, my results have still been better than some "professional" companies.

And of course your training costs are minimal because you are getting all this free consultancy via the fourm! :P

As a matter of interest where are you located? A knowledge of location sometimes influences the answers and advice one offers.

The camera is one we already had, and the fisheye lens was suggested online as being ideal for ease of use and indoor panotours. My boss found the actual lens, and I found PTP/APP. I think I have identified many of my shooting problems through this one thread, and wish the discourse could have happened 4 months ago. I think that 4 months ago I wouldn't have been able to find the settings on the camera to change or known enough about everything to understand it all.

Have you really spent 4 months and made so little progress? Perhaps you should have sought assitance before now.

I can't agree that the fully manual fisheye lens you have is the easiest to use for a novice photographer. Had you chosen the Smyang version of your lens with the AE chip, or the excellenty Nikkor 10.5mm fishey then I think you would probably have made better progress.
Last edited by mediavets on Wed May 23, 2012 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 2:38 pm

mediavets wrote:
jeradg wrote:This is probably true. Should I leave the same focus setting throughout the shoot or change it based on distance from objects/walls?

You should not change the focus during the shoot. Fisheye lenses have massive Depth Of Field - in other words everything from 1metre to infinity will be in focus if you have set the focus correctly. This is one of the advanatges of using fishey elnse for shooting panos rather than non-fisheye lense which have much shallower DOF.

Take some test shots to find the focus setting where an object about 1 meter from the camera is in sharp focus and that should be fine for all panos. The markings on the focus ring may be inaccurate so you need to take test shots.

Set the camera to manual focus and use the focus ring on the lens to focus.

With a fisheye lens it's essential that you have the camera/lens set at the No Parallax Point (NPP) - especially when shooting indoors with parts of the scene close to the camera - to achieve a good stitch. Are you confident that you have your camera/lens set at the NPP?

I'm not familar with the in-built HDR functionality of the D5100, but I suggest you don't use it until you are getting cosnistent results without it just using a single manually set exposure for all the images in the shoot. Let's learn to crawl before we try to run! Your challenge with a fully manual lens like yours will be to determine that manual exposure which is an appropriate compromise for the varying light levels around the scene; set the aperture at say f8 and then take some test shots to establish a suitable hutter speed.

I actually checked the coverage/overlap of the pictures with objects to ensure approx 1/3 - with the standard. When I first started, using the fisheye, I was shooting 4 (every 90°), which is probably a large part of the problem. I stuck with shooting 4 horizontal, 1 zenith, 1 nadir because I was getting well stitched results in APP. I would then delete the nadir because it had the tripod in it (and I would be cropping anyways).

4-around is not enough with your fisheye on the D5100 - to start with I recommend that you try 6-around at zero pitch (that 60 degree separations on the yaw axis) and forget about zenith and nadir for now if you don't need 180 degree VFOV for your project. Once you are getting consistent resukts then we can consider alternative shooting patterns to at least cover the zenith; you can always 'hide' the nadir using the PTP crop tool or by placing a nadir patch image or a logo over the nadir area.

All true. Luckily, we have defined top quality results as making a best effort with our in-house production of a tour that we can have continued control over as our facilities change. 5 months @ <10 hrs/week = a lot of progress and even more learning. The overall project cost including my pay is still less than we were quoted by some companies, all of which would require travel expenses since there are no tour companies local. Despite all my issues, which you now see are numerous, my results have still been better than some "professional" companies.

And of course your training costs are minimal because you are getting all this free consultancy via the fourm! :P

As a matter of interest where are you located? A knowledge of location sometimes influences the answers and advice one offers.

The camera is one we already had, and the fisheye lens was suggested online as being ideal for ease of use and indoor panotours. My boss found the actual lens, and I found PTP/APP. I think I have identified many of my shooting problems through this one thread, and wish the discourse could have happened 4 months ago. I think that 4 months ago I wouldn't have been able to find the settings on the camera to change or known enough about everything to understand it all.

Have you really spent 4 months and made so little progress? Perhaps you should have sought assitance before now.

I can't agree that the fully manual fisheye lens you have is the easiest to use for a novice photographer. Had you chosen the Smyang version of your lens with the AE chip, or the excellenty Nikkor 10.5mm fishey then I think you would probably have made better progress.

Part of the problem is that APP and PTP were so easy to use I thought my results were better than they were. At the same time, I have always been impressed by the quality of tours created by people like Klaus (I would say yours, but I'm not certain I've seen one).

Additionally, there is a lot of information out on the internet, but the large majority of it is in bits and pieces and covers only a very shallow level of information on any given topic. For instance, we read fisheye would be easiest, but we ended up with a fully manual one, which has obviously turned out to not be the easiest.

I am fairly certain I have the camera set on the NPP. I have the golden ring of the lens aligned to where it is not moving as I spin the camera 360 degrees (as the NN3II instructions say to). I haven't had a problem getting the fisheye images to align in APP even when taking only 4 shots for 360.

I was using the HDR function on the camera recently because I previously had attempted using the bracketing function on the camera and manually adjusting shutter speed. The multiple types/brightnesses of indoor lights and the brightness of the sun through the windows (at all times of the day when it is sunny) made single exposures give undesired results.

Free forum help is the best. UI, forum activity, and results are why I chose APP/PTP. It's too bad I'm about to graduate from law school and they never offered me a photography class... This has been a much more enjoyable project than writing papers.

I am in Oklahoma.

... and in response to your settings post: how were you able to set the camera to D5100? Only 5000, 5200 are available in my APP. Previously, someone (on here) had told me to set APP to 5000. Also, I see you have it set to 9mm? I had also read online to start with the maximum aperture (indoors), but you suggest starting at 8; I will play with it some. I have already been using circular crop and panorama layout in that way (see I did something right :p).

Edit: ^^ aperture settings answer: http://www.shortcourses.com/use/using1-10.html "For maximum depth of field, with the entire scene sharp from near to far, you need a small aperture"
Last edited by jeradg on Wed May 23, 2012 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 2:39 pm

And I have been seeking assistance = 80 posts now.

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by hankkarl » Wed May 23, 2012 3:29 pm

I think there may be a vocabulary issue here:
1. Distortion - example is straight lines become curved They may be sharp or blurry.
2. Out of Focus, or soft focus - lines may be straight, but are blurry.

At f/5 there are going to be some areas that are out of focus. If you autofocus on the center, it shouldn't surprise you that the edges are out of focus.

Try shooting at f/11 on a crop sensor or f/16 on a FF. Better yet, find the apreture that gives you the largest depfth of field with acceptable difraction. see http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-a-Lens-Aperture-%28F-Stop%29

On a FF body with 8mm lens, set f/16 with a focal distance of 0.48 feet (ie 6 inches or about .33 meters) outdoors, less indoors. IIRC This will focus to infinity. Or learn about hyperfocal distance. And use the calculator at http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Don't shoot jpg or auto-hdr. Shoot RAW, use AEB two stops appart (3 stops on some cameras).And use photomatix or APG exposure fusion to blend.

And as others have said, use manual everything. Keep it the same thoughout the entire shoot. And you may have to go beyond 6 stops if you're in a dark room with windows to a sunny day outside.

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by mediavets » Wed May 23, 2012 4:10 pm

jeradg wrote:Part of the problem is that APP and PTP were so easy to use I thought my results were better than they were. At the same time, I have always been impressed by the quality of tours created by people like Klaus (I would say yours, but I'm not certain I've seen one).

Don't be too hard on yourself it takes a lot of practise and a lot of experience to get good at makimg quality pherical panos of interiors - they are the most difficult and challenging type of panos. Klaus is a pro photographer with 30+ years of experience.

Additionally, there is a lot of information out on the internet, but the large majority of it is in bits and pieces and covers only a very shallow level of information on any given topic. For instance, we read fisheye would be easiest, but we ended up with a fully manual one, which has obviously turned out to not be the easiest.

So true. It's a pity you didn't seek advice on equipment here or on the panoguide.com forum before purchasing. (BTW panoguide.com forum members tend to be committed to the PTGui sticthing software so don't go there for asssuitance with APP/APG and PTP).

I am fairly certain I have the camera set on the NPP. I have the golden ring of the lens aligned to where it is not moving as I spin the camera 360 degrees (as the NN3II instructions say to). I haven't had a problem getting the fisheye images to align in APP even when taking only 4 shots for 360.

You may find this informative:
http://www.easypano.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=1&TopicID=4162

IMO 4-around does not provide adequate overlaps. 6-around certainly does.

I was using the HDR function on the camera recently because I previously had attempted using the bracketing function on the camera and manually adjusting shutter speed. The multiple types/brightnesses of indoor lights and the brightness of the sun through the windows (at all times of the day when it is sunny) made single exposures give undesired results.

OK - and did you get good colour and exposure blending in APP/APG? if so then by all means use that feature it sounds interesting and I wish my Nikon had it.

But what I'm trying to do here is to get you to simplify your workflow in the first instance until you are confident of getting consistent results. Therafter you can start to add 'complexity' to the workflow - and HDR using bracketed exposures certainly complicates things in most case where cameras do not have that in-built HDR/expsoure blending feature.

Free forum help is the best. UI, forum activity, and results are why I chose APP/PTP. It's too bad I'm about to graduate from law school and they never offered me a photography class... This has been a much more enjoyable project than writing papers.

So you're to be a lawyer...then you won't have these pano problems for long because you'll be able to hire a pro!

Do you know the old joke 'what do you call 4,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?"................'a good start!".

I am in Oklahoma.

Never mind when you are a wealthy lawyer you'll be able to relocate ;)

... and in response to your settings post: how were you able to set the camera to D5100? Only 5000, 5200 are available in my APP. Previously, someone (on here) had told me to set APP to 5000.

What version of APP are you using? - the latest is 2.6.3:

http://www.kolor.com/download-autopano-panotour-panorama-virtual-tour-software.html

You need to select 'D5100' not '5000' - see screenshot below.

Also, I see you have it set to 9mm? I had also read online to start with the maximum aperture (indoors), but you suggest starting at 8; I will play with it some. I have already been using circular crop and panorama layout in that way (see I did something right :p).

The 9mm setting is for focal length (the variously branded Samyang fisheye clones are marked with different focal lengths but experiment has shown that a setting of 9mm seems to work best with PTGui and APP/APG) - don't confuse focal length with aperture.

Edit: ^^ aperture settings answer: http://www.shortcourses.com/use/using1-10.html "For maximum depth of field, with the entire scene sharp from near to far, you need a small aperture"

Hmmmm.. but fisheye lenses are different in that resoct from rectilinear (non-fisheye) lenses and have massive DOF at all apertures. That asid they don't have teh same degree of sharpness at all apertures. In general with most fisheye lenses something like f8 works pretty well, although the Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye does pretty well at f4 and at a pinch can be used fully open at f2.8.

...............

Right now you are trying to get to grips with that fisheye lens.

So check you have that camera/lens at the NPP, that you have the focus set to produce a sharp focus at 1 meter, set the aperture at f8, then chose an evenly well lit scene with lots of detail for the stitcher set a manual white balance, and manual expsoure, and shoot a single row at zero pitch, 6-around, with 60 degree yaw separations and see how you get on.

Show us an example of a stitched pano shot this way so we can comment and advise.

When stitching set the Projection type to spherical amd Preferred extend to Max. range.




Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 4:21 pm

hankkarl wrote:I think there may be a vocabulary issue here:
1. Distortion - example is straight lines become curved They may be sharp or blurry.
2. Out of Focus, or soft focus - lines may be straight, but are blurry.

At f/5 there are going to be some areas that are out of focus. If you autofocus on the center, it shouldn't surprise you that the edges are out of focus.

Try shooting at f/11 on a crop sensor or f/16 on a FF. Better yet, find the apreture that gives you the largest depfth of field with acceptable difraction. see http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-a-Lens-Aperture-%28F-Stop%29

On a FF body with 8mm lens, set f/16 with a focal distance of 0.48 feet (ie 6 inches or about .33 meters) outdoors, less indoors. IIRC This will focus to infinity. Or learn about hyperfocal distance. And use the calculator at http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Don't shoot jpg or auto-hdr. Shoot RAW, use AEB two stops appart (3 stops on some cameras).And use photomatix or APG exposure fusion to blend.

And as others have said, use manual everything. Keep it the same thoughout the entire shoot. And you may have to go beyond 6 stops if you're in a dark room with windows to a sunny day outside.

No, I actually mean that it looks more distorted towards the corners (stretch, not blur). As I have said before, I understand that it shouldn't be, but my results are what they are due to some mistake along the way. The first thing I did (before touching a camera) was look up photography vocabulary. Understanding the relationships between aperture/shutter speed/depth of field/focal distance is what I am still trying to get a hang of. -- which your link helps explain.

When shooting with the fisheye I have been using RAW, AEB at 2 stops, and nothing auto (no chip = no auto).

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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 4:41 pm

I went and shot 6 @ 60 intervals with f5.6 and 1/10 shutter (at 4 test focuses) and 6 @ 60 intervals at f8 and 1/5 shutter (w/4 test focuses)... (samples posted)

The HDR camera function did a decent job of exposing shadows - see the better of the 2 large room images I posted on page 1 of this thread.

I am using the most recent version of APP. I was using 2.6.2 because the notes from 2.6.3 seemed irrelevant. 2.6.2 didn't have D5100, only D5000.

I will post results when completed in APP.

Edit: how can I eliminate the effect of the light bleeding onto the ceiling tiles? I have been doing it in photoshop after stitching.




Last edited by jeradg on Wed May 23, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 4:46 pm

Here is what I got... This is from the f8, 1/5 shutter, ~3m focus, D5100 setting, 9mm focal length, spherical projection, maximum projection........


Last edited by jeradg on Wed May 23, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed May 23, 2012 4:51 pm

jeradg wrote:Edit: how can I eliminate the effect of the light bleeding onto the ceiling tiles? I have been doing it in photoshop after stitching.

You can´t. It´s the lens. Given you cleaned your lens properely the bleeding shows that the coating isn´t good.
This results in such effects - the border between dark and very bright isn´t as sharp accentuated as it should be
and a halo occurs.

You can minimize it a bit by using a small aperture - f:11/16/22 test them.

best, Klaus

P.S.: how did you process the HDR?
Last edited by klausesser on Wed May 23, 2012 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Wed May 23, 2012 4:54 pm

jeradg wrote:Here is what I got... This is from the f8, 1/5 shutter, ~3m focus, D5100 setting, 9mm focal length, spherical projection, maximum projection........

Can you make screenshots from ALL settings related to detecting, stitching and optimizing?

best, Klaus
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by mediavets » Wed May 23, 2012 4:57 pm

jeradg wrote:I went and shot 6 @ 60 intervals with f5.6 and 1/10 shutter (at 4 test focuses) and 6 @ 60 intervals at f8 and 1/5 shutter (w/4 test focuses)... (samples posted)

The HDR camera function did a decent job of exposing shadows - see the better of the 2 large room images I posted on page 1 of this thread.

I am using the most recent version of APP. I was using 2.6.2 because the notes from 2.6.3 seemed irrelevant. 2.6.2 didn't have D5100, only D5000.

I will post results when completed in APP..

Wow you are difficult to mentor/coach...

I said:

"Right now you are trying to get to grips with that fisheye lens.

So check you have that camera/lens at the NPP, that you have the focus set to produce a sharp focus at 1 meter, set the aperture at f8, then chose an evenly well lit scene with lots of detail for the stitcher set a manual white balance, and manual exposure, and shoot a single row at zero pitch, 6-around, with 60 degree yaw separations and see how you get on."

That scene doesn't look evenly well lit with lots of detail to me. Did you set a manual white balance. If yopu are shooting RAW what softare are you using for RAW consversion? I know the experts always shoot RAW but as a novice I feel it's just adding complexity to your workflow right now and that you may be better off shooting JPEG initially unless you are very confident that you can do a better job with your RAW conversion software than the camera can do.

You are trying to develop decent shooting technique and workflow right now - so please do as as I suggest rather than follow your own whims if you want me to bother to continue with this.

If you have no evenly well lit interior spaces then shoot outdoors.

You're on a hiding to nothing if you start trying to shoot the most challenging sort of scenes with having first developed good technique and an effective workflow. You are trying to sprint when you can barely crawl.

You may have felt that tyhe v. 2.6.3 release notes didn't offer anything you needed, but it's generally always worth upgrading because there are often relevant changes and bug fixes made 'under the hood' which do not get spelled out in detail. In your case explicit support for the Nikon D5100!
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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 5:03 pm

Settings













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by mediavets » Wed May 23, 2012 5:04 pm

jeradg wrote:Here is what I got... This is from the f8, 1/5 shutter, ~3m focus, D5100 setting, 9mm focal length, spherical projection, maximum projection........

Did I say set focus to '~3M'? No, I said test shoot to find the focus ring position at which you achieve the sharpest focus on an object about 1m from the camera. If you do that correctly you'll find that everything will be in focus.

I suspect the reason you got the result you have is that a) the scene is not evenly well lit and b) it is not full of distinct detail for the stitcher to use to set control points to link the images automatically.

The way to check and fix things is to use the Control Point Efitor but that maty be more that you're 'up for' at this stage.

If you can ZIP that image set and make it available online I'll be happy to download and test stitch myself.
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by klausesser » Wed May 23, 2012 5:12 pm

jeradg wrote:Settings

use detection "low" or "standard" and check "force every image . . . ".

Can you make a screenshot of the cp-window?

best, KLaus

btw.: better use RAW - you can edit the white-balance. The color aof the light is ugly. ;)
Last edited by klausesser on Wed May 23, 2012 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 5:13 pm

mediavets wrote:
jeradg wrote:I went and shot 6 @ 60 intervals with f5.6 and 1/10 shutter (at 4 test focuses) and 6 @ 60 intervals at f8 and 1/5 shutter (w/4 test focuses)... (samples posted)

The HDR camera function did a decent job of exposing shadows - see the better of the 2 large room images I posted on page 1 of this thread.

I am using the most recent version of APP. I was using 2.6.2 because the notes from 2.6.3 seemed irrelevant. 2.6.2 didn't have D5100, only D5000.

I will post results when completed in APP..

Wow you are difficult to mentor/coach...

I said:

"Right now you are trying to get to grips with that fisheye lens.

So check you have that camera/lens at the NPP, that you have the focus set to produce a sharp focus at 1 meter, set the aperture at f8, then chose an evenly well lit scene with lots of detail for the stitcher set a manual white balance, and manual exposure, and shoot a single row at zero pitch, 6-around, with 60 degree yaw separations and see how you get on."

That scene doesn't look evenly well lit with lots of detail to me. Did you set a manual white balance. If yopu are shooting RAW what softare are you using for RAW consversion? I know the experts always shoot RAW but as a novice I feel it's just adding complexity to your workflow right now and that you may be better off shooting JPEG initially unless you are very confident that you can do a better job with your RAW conversion software than the camera can do.

You are trying to develop decent shooting technique and workflow right now - so please do as as I suggest rather than follow your own whims if you want me to bother to continue with this.

If you have no evenly well lit interior spaces then shoot outdoors.

You're on a hiding to nothing if you start trying to shoot the most challenging sort of scenes with having first developed good technique and an effective workflow. You are trying to sprint when you can barely crawl.

You may have felt that tyhe v. 2.6.3 release notes didn't offer anything you needed, but it's generally always worth upgrading because there are often relevant changes and bug fixes made 'under the hood' which do not get spelled out in detail. In your case explicit support for the Nikon D5100!

I suppose I don't know what "evenly well-lit" means, and I thought the flooring, numbers, and wood of the lockers were detail.

The trash can/lockers are at about 1m, and I shot there because it is the most evenly lit place in the building (everywhere else has multiple types of lighting). -- aside from this misunderstanding of the location of the shots, I am attempting to follow your directions specifically, including all camera and APP settings. I will go shoot a round outside.

I did shoot these in jpeg because I know RAW is more difficult. Previously when shooting RAW I was putting those directly into APP. Klaus had previously explained that I should rotate the images prior to adding them to APP, but I have not figured out an efficient way to do this with RAW yet.

Edit: I didn't only shoot at ~3m focus setting. I took the shots 8 times at different focus settings to compare as you suggested.
Last edited by jeradg on Wed May 23, 2012 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed May 23, 2012 5:17 pm

jeradg wrote:Klaus had previously explained that I should rotate the images prior to adding them to APP, but I have not figured out an efficient way to do this with RAW yet.

No need to rotate in APG when you don´t use xml import.

But RAW definitely would help a lot!! Preferably processing it in Lightroom to TIFF and then use the TIFFs in APG. That´s what i do. RAW processing in APG is rather basic . . :cool:

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed May 23, 2012 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 5:21 pm

klausesser wrote:
jeradg wrote:Settings

use detection "low" or "standard" and check "force every image . . . ".

Can you make a screenshot of the cp-window?

best, KLaus

btw.: better use RAW - you can edit the white-balance. The color aof the light is ugly. ;)

Here are the strong, standard and low, and the CP editor.

I am still working on figuring out which white balance to use (multiple adjustments so far today). I have been editing the colors in photoshop after in the meantime. Either way, the lighting color isn't the best, even in reality.





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by hankkarl » Wed May 23, 2012 5:26 pm

klausesser wrote:
jeradg wrote:Settings

use detection "low" or "standard" and check "force every image . . . ".

Can you make a screenshot of the cp-window?

best, KLaus

btw.: better use RAW - you can edit the white-balance. The color aof the light is ugly. ;)

Exactly. And some internal panos have 3 light sources -- fluorescent lights, incandescent lights and sunlight in different areas. So use RAW so you have more leeway to correct the colors.
Also, its probably best to use manual WB, but if you shoot raw, you can change the WB if you forget and leave it on auto :-)

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by klausesser » Wed May 23, 2012 5:27 pm

jeradg wrote:
klausesser wrote:
jeradg wrote:Settings

use detection "low" or "standard" and check "force every image . . . ".

Can you make a screenshot of the cp-window?

best, KLaus

btw.: better use RAW - you can edit the white-balance. The color aof the light is ugly. ;)

Here are the strong, standard and low, and the CP editor.

I am still working on figuring out which white balance to use (multiple adjustments so far today). I have been editing the colors in photoshop after in the meantime. Either way, the lighting color isn't the best, even in reality.

You might add control points in the more detrailed parts of the images - corners of cabinets and so on. I see you have cps on the floor - which is not very clear structured . . .

Go to the documentation wiki and look for "adding control points"

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed May 23, 2012 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by hankkarl » Wed May 23, 2012 5:29 pm

The CPs explain a lot. The floor tiles are probably a regular geometric pattern -- it may look random, but I'll bet each tile is similar to another, or at least has a lot of similar features "randomly" distributed.

Take the CPs off the floor and put them on the cabinet.

Ceiling tiles will have the same problem as the floor.
Last edited by hankkarl on Wed May 23, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 5:41 pm

I have been adding CPs (I just haven't in this case because the focus is on getting images more well-done so less CP/other editing would be necessary). The floor and ceiling tiles are very much similar. I don't understand why it is finding no links at all between different images though. I have been right clicking on the image, "Hard link to image...." and then adding control points after they are hard linked (and deleting the hard link control pts). I usually use corners of doors, lights, ceiling tiles and other things to get as much coverage with CPs as possible on a vertical and horizontal line.

I also am using manual WB, but have not found a particular one to be pleasing yet.

I generally take the pictures with RAW and jpeg enabled so I can preview the image # with the jpeg in windows explorer, and then use the RAW to put in APP. I will explore Klaus's suggestion of lightroom. I have not done much pre-APP manipulation because I don't want to have the images differ and cause problems.

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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 5:49 pm

Here is 1 attempt at an outdoor pano, 6 @ 60 degrees, f/11, 1/125 shutter.



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by jeradg » Wed May 23, 2012 5:52 pm

Added "Force Single Row/Column" to the indoor shot.... Apparently that was the last thing necessary for a good stitching without any work.



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by mediavets » Wed May 23, 2012 5:55 pm

jeradg wrote:I suppose I don't know what "evenly well-lit" means, and I thought the flooring, numbers, and wood of the lockers were detail.

They don't offer unique detail - in your scene I think one floor tile probably looks much like another and the wood of one locker is much like that of another and the same for ceiling tiles.

The automatic CP detection system works best with uniwue detail, with scenes such as yours it can get confused by very similar detail in non-adjacent images and create false links.

False links are very easy to spot and fix with the CP Editor.

The trash can/lockers are at about 1m, and I shot there because it is the most evenly lit place in the building (everywhere else has multiple types of lighting).

Multiple lighting types are a challenge that will always involve a degree of compromise.

I suggest that you try to avoid such challenges until you have technique and workflow sorted using easier scenes.

I did shoot these in jpeg because I know RAW is more difficult. Previously when shooting RAW I was putting those directly into APP. Klaus had previously explained that I should rotate the images prior to adding them to APP, but I have not figured out an efficient way to do this with RAW yet.

I think Klaus probably meant to convert rather than ' rotate' images prior to sticthing in APP/APG - you will have been supplied with some sort of Nikon RAW conversion software with the camera. Some Adobe image processing programs also offer RAW conversion capabilities.

The RAW conversion built in to APP/APG is rather 'generic' and is unlikely to be as good as the alternative mentioned and you hgave no manual control over the built-in RAW conversion. Hence Klaus and other advocate doing the RAW conversion using other software before importing images into APP/APG.

Regarding focus settings - as I mentioned earlier you cannot rely on the focus distance markings on the lens to be accurate. This lens and it's branded clones are often not correctrly set/adjusted when they leave the factory. Hence the need to test to find the actual the setting that gives sharpest focus for an object at a known distance.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/fish-eye/discuss/72157623021064866/
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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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