"Steps" in the horizon  

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leifs
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by leifs » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:03 am

it's good start !
I would like to render it to 100% though
I you put a horisontal guide on the rendered image you see that the sea is running (fast to the right) towards the middle of the pano :)

leifs


Last edited by leifs on Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by CheeseAndJamSandwich » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:35 am

This stepped horizon problem has been a pita for me dozens of times, and it really needs a tool created to fix it. I've posted a thread in the feature request forum ages ago... On my phone so can't find the link. The 'washing line' approach seems to be a descent method.

The sea/flat terain should never have steps in it... This should be an absolute priority for the stitching software as it's often SO obvious!

Most of the time the foreground below the step doesn't contain any important details, so morphing/shifting joins there woud be totally invisible.

Please, please please! Can when have the tool?

A stepped horizon is a failed stitch.

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by marzipano » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:52 pm

CheeseAndJamSandwich wrote:This stepped horizon problem has been a pita for me dozens of times, and it really needs a tool created to fix it. I've posted a thread in the feature request forum ages ago... On my phone so can't find the link. The 'washing line' approach seems to be a descent method.

The sea/flat terain should never have steps in it... This should be an absolute priority for the stitching software as it's often SO obvious!

Most of the time the foreground below the step doesn't contain any important details, so morphing/shifting joins there woud be totally invisible.

Please, please please! Can when have the tool?

A stepped horizon is a failed stitch.

This thread I think

http://www.kolor.com/forum/t7906-horizon-tool

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by klausesser » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:44 pm

gkaefer wrote:hmm - 1st try and I think no problems.

Besides of a wavy horizon . . ;)

I imported the xml and it seems (!) to show some bad alignment or lens-distortion.
But i didn´t further explore it yet. Will do it in the evening. Intersting case anyway!

@leifs: did you touch the head during the session?

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:56 pm

CheeseAndJamSandwich wrote:The sea/flat terain should never have steps in it... This should be an absolute priority for the stitching software as it's often SO obvious!

Right - but don´t blame it to the stitcher alone! :D:cool:

Usually it´s rather a sign for a bad alignment of your device.

Another reason might be some lens-distortions resp. (!) guessed (!) "distortions" by the optimizer.

therefore i´m still waiting for an information (hope i didn´t miss it) about how the optimizer´s "lens correction" works in detail and whether it should be activated with the use of
non-exif lenses also or better left unchecked. Informations already provided by Kolor seemed somewhat unclear - at least to me . .

best, Klaus
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by CheeseAndJamSandwich » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:14 pm

marzipano wrote:
CheeseAndJamSandwich wrote:This stepped horizon problem has been a pita for me dozens of times, and it really needs a tool created to fix it. I've posted a thread in the feature request forum ages ago... On my phone so can't find the link. The 'washing line' approach seems to be a descent method.

The sea/flat terain should never have steps in it... This should be an absolute priority for the stitching software as it's often SO obvious!

Most of the time the foreground below the step doesn't contain any important details, so morphing/shifting joins there woud be totally invisible.

Please, please please! Can when have the tool?

A stepped horizon is a failed stitch.

This thread I think

http://www.kolor.com/forum/t7906-horizon-tool

That's the kiddie!

Cheers Marzipano

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by klausesser » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:41 pm

CheeseAndJamSandwich wrote:That's the kiddie!
Cheers Marzipano

??? :cool:

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:22 pm

klausesser wrote:@leifs: did you touch the head during the session?
best, Klaus

It was shot using a VRdrive 1 on a 2m pole in windy condittions. First one row, change the pitch, then row #2. Ofcourse this is not optimal.
On the other hand this is not indoors and the trouble is the horizon xx kilometers away. The foreground dosn't matter much, so the CP's there could all be deleted (?).

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by leifs » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:36 pm

To move the case forward I have a suggestion to Kolor for the new "horisontal horizon"-tool :)
It is easy to get a pano at RMS 2.0 with a nice horizon. The problem is to get it horisontal, and the "vertical line"-tool makes steps and is to no use in theese cases.
A solution is:
start with the RMS 2.0 detection, use a tool like the Photoshop line-tool to mark the horizon, like in the image below
the "horisontal horizon"-tool warp the pano so the marked line is horisontal :)

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by CheeseAndJamSandwich » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:58 pm

leifs wrote:To move the case forward I have a suggestion to Kolor for the new "horisontal horizon"-tool :)
It is easy to get a pano at RMS 2.0 with a nice horizon. The problem is to get it horisontal, and the "vertical line"-tool makes steps and is to no use in theese cases.
A solution is:
start with the RMS 2.0 detection, use a tool like the Photoshop line-tool to mark the horizon, like in the image below
the "horisontal horizon"-tool warp the pano so the marked line is horisontal :)

leifs

Have you read my feature request idea i had a while ago, in the link above?
Similar idea... But i'd just add manual horizon control points to each image (that needs them), and these point would be forced to lie exactly on the horizon in the finished projection... So same, same, but different... But this would also eliminate the steps, which the OP was having problems with.
The manual horizon control points could be added even if the actual horizon (sea, etc) isn't in the image... and subtly moved to warp the image until it looked right...

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by leifs » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:56 pm

CheeseAndJamSandwich wrote:Have you read my feature request idea i had a while ago, in the link above?

I have browsed it now. And I guess there are other threads too about this issue.
My impression (not verified) is that the detected result is often OK but using the "vertical line"-tools scrambles the horizon/makes steps.
Is your steps in the above thread from the detection or is it after trying to "repair" the horizon ?

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by CheeseAndJamSandwich » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:07 pm

It's stepped from the detection...
I've found the verticals tool does pretty much nothing to get rid of the steps
Putting control points in the area of the horizon, and deleting foreground ones never seems to change it either...

Manually putting points down on a horizon is such an easy thing, so the tool should be so simple to use.

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by AlexandreJ » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:52 am

This ice landscape is a good example. Would it be possible to upload it on the ftp ? I would like to create a tutorial how of it to explain how to fix the horizon issue.

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by leifs » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:27 am

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by gkaefer » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:32 am

AlexandreJ wrote:This ice landscape is a good example. Would it be possible to upload it on the ftp ? I would like to create a tutorial how of it to explain how to fix the horizon issue.

hmm:
the "Automatic horizon" tool makes it worser on right half of the pano and
the "Vertical Tool" doese absolute nothing in this case (tried with one to 10 different placed vertical lines - different placements and different lengths ...)

so I'm curious for the solution :cool:

I just wonder why its technically inpossible to provide the horizontal tool in other projections than the planar projection?

Georg
Last edited by gkaefer on Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:26 pm

gkaefer wrote:I just wonder why its technically inpossible to provide the horizontal tool in other projections than the planar projection?

Hi Georg!

For me the correction tool works arlready perfectly for years also in spherical projection. Never had such a problem like leifs has. I´m afraid there´s something weird otherwise . .

Some images on the left side are tilted and on the right side the horison goes up. Most of the image´s horizon i could correct using the vert.lines tool - but not in all
parts of the pano at the same time. In the left 3rd there´s a clear curve which results from the twisted images. I tried to rotate and move them - and that worked: the curvation was gone.
But after that some other part of the image became unstraightened again . . .

best, KLaus
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by CheeseAndJamSandwich » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:28 pm

I.e. chasing rabbits.

With the new tool ideas we've suggested, once we've set the points/line on the horizon, this should then be set in stone, no matter what manipulations you try after, it shouldn't be possible to change it unless you first disabled the true horizon tool.

But perhaps it should work on two levels... The first as above, which fixes steps and wiggly horizons...
And second, perhaps a switch to allow the moving, rotating, as with normal good panos, but the steps are fixed. So the now flat horizon can go S shaped... perhaps only needed for special occasions :-)

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by klausesser » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:55 pm

CheeseAndJamSandwich wrote:I.e. chasing rabbits.

With the new tool ideas we've suggested, once we've set the points/line on the horizon, this should then be set in stone, no matter what manipulations you try after, it shouldn't be possible to change it unless you first disabled the true horizon tool.

But because it might work on the whole "construction" i do leveling only in the end.

CheeseAndJamSandwich wrote:But perhaps it should work on two levels... The first as above, which fixes steps and wiggly horizons...
And second, perhaps a switch to allow the moving, rotating, as with normal good panos, but the steps are fixed. So the now flat horizon can go S shaped... perhaps only needed for special occasions :-)

"Steps" come from stitch-errors in my understanding. A "wiggly" horizon usually result from geometrical issues - caused by lens-issues/-distortions or misaligning the setup . . . by mistake or by choice.
That´s how i understand it.

best, Klaus

I use "misalignment" by choice when i place the camera/tripod tilted at about 30°-45° - as is shown here and when the camera rotates with a 45° tilted horizon:


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by marzipano » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:08 pm

If a new facility should be added to handle these "steps" it would be great if it could deal with more "steps" than those found on the horizon

I appreciate that these are really just a form of stitching error but as the OP says, they can pop up anywhere in the panorama where long straight lines are found and not just on horizons

Martin



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by leifs » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:40 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:This ice landscape is a good example. Would it be possible to upload it on the ftp ? I would like to create a tutorial how of it to explain how to fix the horizon issue.

leifs wrote:You can download it from http://www.lstrand.no/ymse/rundevarden.zip
(post http://www.kolor.com/forum/p97951-2012- … -18#p97951)

leifs

how are you doing ?

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by AlexandreJ » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:10 am

I have it. I still need some time to prepare the tutorial.

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by leifs » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:06 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:I have it. I still need some time to prepare the tutorial.

I can't see the tutorial yet. Am I looking at the wrong places ?

The problem is still there. This example shows that APG finds CP's in the sky, which is of no interest, but does not care about the horizon. For humans the borderline between water and sky is the importent element here, but APG seems to ignore it and happily make CP's in the clouds instead.

For the wish-list:
if there is a water-sky-horizon make shure it is straight and horisontal, Auto !

leifs




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by klausesser » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:51 pm

leifs wrote:
AlexandreJ wrote:I have it. I still need some time to prepare the tutorial.

I can't see the tutorial yet. Am I looking at the wrong places ?

The problem is still there. This example shows that APG finds CP's in the sky, which is of no interest, but does not care about the horizon. For humans the borderline between water and sky is the importent element here, but APG seems to ignore it and happily make CP's in the clouds instead.

For the wish-list:
if there is a water-sky-horizon make shure it is straight and horisontal, Auto !

leifs

Hii leifs!

Try this one: http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Troubleshooting_Papywizard_Cases

My result following this tutorial: http://www.360impressions.de/Oper/ (3GPx)

It deals with the same issues basically.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:29 pm

leifs wrote:
AlexandreJ wrote:I have it. I still need some time to prepare the tutorial.

I can't see the tutorial yet. Am I looking at the wrong places ?

The problem is still there. This example shows that APG finds CP's in the sky, which is of no interest, but does not care about the horizon. For humans the borderline between water and sky is the importent element here, but APG seems to ignore it and happily make CP's in the clouds instead.

For the wish-list:
if there is a water-sky-horizon make shure it is straight and horisontal, Auto !

leifs

Give this a try:
Hard-link 44 to 61, 45 to 62 and so on. Also link diagonally. Optimize locally each time seperately and delete CPs about 2.0 manually.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by ThomasV » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:38 pm

Hi all,

The Kolor team has just published a tutorial concerning the horizon issue with your datas. You can find this one here : http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Fixing_Horizon_Issues.
We really hope it will helps you to solve the issues you are facing.

Regards,
Thomas

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