"Steps" in the horizon  

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by enbilaman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:23 pm

klausesser wrote:
gkaefer wrote:ok. did spend now 2 hours. not perfect result when zooming 100% in autopano. this result now I got I would postprocess without autopano...

So you could unzip it - i get an error message when i start to unzip.

best, Klaus

Yes, the very same happens on my Mac too. Such a failure happens frequently nowadays. May be that's a new Win/mac compatibility problem?

I checked in the browser download folder and the "corrupt" downloaded file is in fact incomplete. After more peering into its content: there are only 53 files and amongst them... only 52 images [~80 MB] out of 96 images [= 250 MB] that were expected.

Another download try yields the very same outcome again:(

Michel

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by gkaefer » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:00 pm

;)

Leif, from technical point of view I can understand Klaus statement. yes NPP could be better found, shooting pattern could be better choosen and a lot more - but on other side I think software should not compel us users to use the most perfect workflow (because than only one workflow is valid ;-)) to get usable/optimum results, it should support us to make the most perfect result of what we provide/supply. autopano does make this nearly in perfection now - but I think such a tool could back up this demand.

from logical point of view I dont understand, why its possible to program an vertical tool working pretty good, but not a horizontal tool. Both tools are placed in a sphere, both have markers in 180" directions.

@ Klaus - yes I used IE9 to klick on leifs link and I did say open the zipfile (not saving it). than when open I did save the content on local disc...

Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

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by lumelix » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:17 pm

Hi leifs

When something is going wrong, we should look where the real problem is:

I set the images in the lower horizon row to equal pitch, roll, fov and focal, and then have a look at the horizon (see image below).
What we can see is a lot of "steps". This is the moving of your camera/head on the pole.
It is really massive and don't allow you using the xml-pattern to fix it.

Then we have there low contrast, windy clouds and a sea full of moving waves.
Where should a image analyzer find there some usefull CP's ?

The solution for your problem is:
Don't use this pole, if it isn't absolutely necessary, like in this case.
If you must use it, then fix it with three cords to the floor, so it couldn't move around.
Shoot the horizon line centrically and in one passage from left to right.
Now you can use the xml-pattern to stitch the images together.


Last edited by lumelix on Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin

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by leifs » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:49 pm

lumelix wrote:It is really massive and don't allow you using the xml-pattern to fix it.

I disagree. Even indoors with a perfectly adjusted NPP setup you need to optimize the images. No head in this world is precise enough to produce a image-set that can be stitched without optimizing.
"Massive" in this case is +/- 1.5 deg. In my opinion APG should handle or include tools to handle this precision. It is marketed at a auto tool for handheld images !

lumelix wrote:Then we have there low contrast, windy clouds and a sea full of moving waves.
Where should a image analyzer find there some usefull CP's ?

You are wrong about "we have there low contrast". The exposure is a compromise to avoid burned out whites and black shadows. The 12.3 EV dynamic range of the sensor is fully exploited.

lumelix wrote:Don't use this pole, if it isn't absolutely necessary, like in this case.
If you must use it, then fix it with three cords to the floor, so it couldn't move around.
Shoot the horizon line centrically and in one passage from left to right.
Now you can use the xml-pattern to stitch the images together.

"then fix it with three cords to the floor" :)
well. in the mountains there are no floor. there are no road either, so all the equipment has to be carried on your back. you don't want to bring along broadcast-quality equipment.

I have made a new program (manual edited) on the VRdrive for the 25mm lens, which shoots a pattern where the horizon is in one row only.
This will reduce the troubles, I hope.

This does not eliminate the need for a tool for horizons. It is peculiar that there is a vertical line tool but no horizon tool. And it is a mystery that Kolor has not adressed this after hundreds of posts about this. See this from 2006 ! http://www.kolor.com/forum/p4771-2006-10-24-15-38-41#p4771
For the last six years there has been hundreds of posts asking for a tool to help make a nice horizon. Search for "horizon" in the forum to see for yourself.

Leif
Last edited by leifs on Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by lumelix » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:36 am

Hi leifs

Yes, APG should - if it could find some usefull CP's.
But it can't because there aren't.
Try to find some CP's manually in the example below (from your images) - you can't.
This is what I mean with low contrast.

"Fix it to the floor" - sorry, I mean: "to the ground". All longer poles are stabilized with some cords or cables.
Three thin cords weigh very little, but they can help a lot to stabilize your pole.

BTW: pano software is designed to deal with static scenes. But this pano is very dynamic in the middle ;)


Last edited by lumelix on Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin

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by leifs » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:13 am

lumelix wrote:Try to find some CP's manually in the example below (from your images) - you can't.

Agree. The way APG works there is none. But the computer between my ears can clearly see the horizon :)
I'm sure Kolor can make some software that identify the horizon as well.
Until now I have not asked for the software to identify the horizon and do the stitch.
Me and many others have asked for a tool so we can help APG do a better stitch of the horizon, using what we see.

Leif
Last edited by leifs on Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:45 pm

gkaefer wrote:@ Klaus - yes I used IE9 to klick on leifs link and I did say open the zipfile (not saving it). than when open I did save the content on local disc...

Hi Georg!

When i click the URL it starts to download automatically and tries to unzip automaticlly.
I will set Safari another way.

best to you, Klaus

PS: doesn´t work. That surprises me: i always can use that kind of files from hundreds of people.
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:20 pm

leifs wrote:"then fix it with three cords to the floor" :)
well. in the mountains there are no floor. there are no road either, so all the equipment has to be carried on your back. you don't want to bring along broadcast-quality equipment.

Well, Leifs: you wouldn´t walk the Himalya wearing your Nike jogging shoes, would you. That means: use the approriate equipment - or you must take in account massive errors.
Every pole or even a high tripod which exceeds 2m NEEDS to be fixed by ropes to the ground when there is heavy wind. Forget "multiple viewpoints" here - that´s ok with fisheyes and few shots.

leifs wrote:I have made a new program (manual edited) on the VRdrive for the 25mm lens, which shoots a pattern where the horizon is in one row only.
This will reduce the troubles, I hope.

This will be better definitley. But the issues with the pole remain.

leifs wrote:This does not eliminate the need for a tool for horizons. It is peculiar that there is a vertical line tool but no horizon tool.

Don´t be misguided by the name. It is NAMED a "vertical line tool" - but it works perfectly for horizons also - that´s why Kolor implementesd the yellow doted lines. Absolutely no question. But you definitely to do the shooting propperly first hand.

leifs wrote:And it is a mystery that Kolor has not adressed this after hundreds of posts about this.

A "mistery"? Not at all: there were several suggestions to use the vertical line´s tool yellow dotted lines for horizons - and there´s video-tutorial how to use it for straightening a horizon.
A "mistery" i see rather in ignoring all the clues . . ;)

As i stated several times before: i often use the head/camera spinning in a 45° position. Then the horizon is VERY much tilted. Using the VLT and aligning the yellow dotted lines along lines i want to be vertical ALWAYS results in perfectly horizons. I NEVER failed to get a horizon straight, when using the tool´s yellow dotted lines additionally.

A horizon usually is far away, right? Yes. And far-way-objects aren´t complicated to stitch in any terms - given you do a correct shooting and do not expect a stitcher to save an impropper shooting´s issues.

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:30 pm

I'm sure Kolor don't base their sale of APG on the assumption that users have a perfected NPP setup and a head like Panoneed or Seitz VRdrive.
See their selling points here http://www.kolor.com/image-stitching-software-autopano-giga-interface.html
No mention of robotic heads or tripods with three ropes to the ground here.

In my opinion this software should tackle a roll of +/-1.5 degrees with ease. And it does when there are CP's. No problem.
But when there are no CP's its another ballgame.

btw:
The vertical line tool seems to work like the move pano tool: it generates steps.

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by klausesser » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:05 pm

leifs wrote:In my opinion this software should tackle a roll of +/-1.5 degrees with ease. And it does when there are CP's. No problem.
But when there are no CP's its another ballgame.

You name it. When there are no CPs: set them manually. :cool:

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by leifs » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:56 pm

klausesser wrote:You name it. When there are no CPs: set them manually. :cool:
best, Klaus

Below there is two neighboring images. Only part of the overlap is shown.
Clouds and water is moving.
How do I set the CP's manually ?

Leif


Last edited by leifs on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by gkaefer » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:46 pm

How do I set the CP's manually ?

rhetorical question?
Georg

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by klausesser » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:09 pm

leifs wrote:
klausesser wrote:You name it. When there are no CPs: set them manually. :cool:
best, Klaus

Below there is two neighboring images. Only part of the overlap is shown.
Clouds and water is moving.
How do I set the CP's manually ?

Leif

Why do you show only crops? (i still can´t unzip your folder).

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:18 pm

gkaefer wrote:
How do I set the CP's manually ?

rhetorical question?
Georg

I know how to set CP's manually.
I just want to know how to set the CP's with pixel accuracy in the pair of images shown :)
In this case it's easy to set CP's manually on the horizon, vertically. But how do I set them horisontally ?

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by lumelix » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:40 am

That's exactly the question ;)
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Martin

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by klausesser » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:31 pm

leifs wrote:In this case it's easy to set CP's manually on the horizon, vertically. But how do I set them horisontally ?

Your issue seems to be rather the vertical connections - otherwise you wouldn´t get vertical steps in the horizon.

Anyway: the best solution is to set the head in a way that it shoots a middle row horizontally. When you put the camera in landscape-mode you minimize the problem of moving clouds a bit.
By shooting only one exposure per position instead of bracketing you minimize the movin cloud problem even more because they naturally move further the longer it takes you to shoot.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by ThomasV » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:19 am

Hello leifs,

I'm sure Kolor don't base their sale of APG on the assumption that users have a perfected NPP setup and a head like Panoneed or Seitz VRdrive.
See their selling points here http://www.kolor.com/image-stitching-so … rface.html
No mention of robotic heads or tripods with three ropes to the ground here.

Of course! No one asked you to have a perfect shooting setup to have good results in Autopano.

In my opinion this software should tackle a roll of +/-1.5 degrees with ease. And it does when there are CP's. No problem.
But when there are no CP's its another ballgame.

It does. That's why I wrote a tutorial about straight horizon at your demand few months ago. In this tutorial, I explained that the plane of the water and the plane of the clouds generate a kind of paralax (regardless your shooting setup) since they are moving. And I explained that, to avoid such problems, you have to setup manually almost all CPs around the horizon. Looking at your pano, it appears that you didn't do that.

Once more, I wanna tell that we understand the need for a simpler tool about straight horizon (which is not a simple horizontal line tool).

Regards,
Thomas

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by leifs » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:37 am

ThomasV wrote:That's why I wrote a tutorial about straight horizon at your demand few months ago. In this tutorial, I explained that the plane of the water and the plane of the clouds generate a kind of paralax (regardless your shooting setup) since they are moving. And I explained that, to avoid such problems, you have to setup manually almost all CPs around the horizon. Looking at your pano, it appears that you didn't do that.

I've read the tutorial several times and it's useful. But it use the "move pano tool" to straighten the horizon, and this results in steps. I'm sure you can see that yourself if you at the end of the tutorial renders the pano and inspect it in 100%. There will be steps in the rendered pano that you cannot see in the editor.

And then: <<you have to setup manually almost all CPs around the horizon>>
Could you please explain how to do that in the case above, in http://www.kolor.com/forum/p107757-2012-11-23-20-56-24#p107757

ThomasV wrote:Once more, I wanna tell that we understand the need for a simpler tool about straight horizon (which is not a simple horizontal line tool).

Regards,
Thomas

APG3 relies on controlPOINTS, fixed by x,y.
For the horizon maybe it would be better with a controlLINES. Let the user draw a line on the horizon in neighbouring images, force the lines to match but let them slide horisontally.

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by ThomasV » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:36 am

Hello Leif,

And then: <<you have to setup manually almost all CPs around the horizon>>
Could you please explain how to do that in the case above, in http://www.kolor.com/forum/p107757-2012 … 24#p107757

I stitched your pano few days ago, achieving good results. I understand that visually the images show very little details. The important part is that the control points are neither on the top nor on the bottom of the images, because it cause extreme paralax that will break optimization and lead to stitching errors. If the points are around the horizon, even if they are not pixel accurate, the optimization will be less hurt by that.

APG3 relies on controlPOINTS, fixed by x,y.
For the horizon maybe it would be better with a controlLINES. Let the user draw a line on the horizon in neighbouring images, force the lines to match but let them slide horisontally.

You are absolutely right.

Regards,
Thomas

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by leifs » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:00 am

I'm trying to move this case forward:
this time it's calm, no wind. I've used a pole supported by a tripod.
I have made a shooting pattern with the horizon in one row only.
It should be a piece of cake.

After using all my skills there is still a step in the horizon. It's maybe a rotation of 0.1 degree, but it's visible in 100%.
I have rendered it as "simple" and doctored it using Photoshop. The result is artifacts around the nadir.
The morale: APG still lack a horizon line-tool
http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/langeneset_runde/virtualtour.html

to Klaus:
take a trip to the coast and shoot a pano before you give your opinion on this problem.

Leif


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by CheeseAndJamSandwich » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:17 am

leifs wrote:to Klaus:
take a trip to the coast and shoot a pano before you give your opinion on this problem.

Almost every one of my 'failed' stitches have been exactly this...

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by klausesser » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:00 pm

lumelix wrote:The solution for your problem is:
Don't use this pole, if it isn't absolutely necessary, like in this case.
If you must use it, then fix it with three cords to the floor, so it couldn't move around.
Shoot the horizon line centrically and in one passage from left to right.
Now you can use the xml-pattern to stitch the images together.

I definitely second your words regarding the pole. A collegue shot a 360° from a hotel´s roof here in Duesseldorf using a pole 16m high - hydraulic construction, extremely rigid - and fixed it with 3 steel cords.
He had borrowed a Panoneed prototype head from Josef. Perfect stitch - also windy situation. But hey: he´s a pro. http://www.duesseldorf-gigapixel-panorama.360-up.com/duesseldorf-gigapixel-panorama-360-up.com.html

Shooting an extra strictly horizontal row and adding it to the complete sphere maybe can solve the issue - which, honestly, shoudn´t be existent at all . . .

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:07 pm

leifs wrote:to Klaus:
take a trip to the coast and shoot a pano before you give your opinion on this problem.

No need for that. I know what i do and i know about what i write ;):cool:
If you don´t like my opinion i can stop writing it for trying to help you fixing your issues which exist for months now . . . .
These kind of issues don´t fall from the heavens - where ever this heavens may be - they´re user-made.

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:40 pm

klausesser wrote:your issues which exist for months now . . . .
best, Klaus

months? :lol::lol:
years !!
try a search in the forum on "horizon" and there will be 40 pages with posts about the issue
here is one post from 2006 (!)
http://www.kolor.com/forum/p394-2006-01-21-17-06-52#p394
Ben is writing: "The current vertical tool is a bit of a hack and not very easy to use to fix horizontal lines." and he wants a better tool for APG ver 1.2 !!
Six years later and ver 3.01 there is still no tool, still only the vertical line tool.

Leif
Last edited by leifs on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:59 pm

leifs wrote:Ben is writing: "The current vertical tool is a bit of a hack and not very easy to use to fix horizontal lines." and he wants a better tool for APG ver 1.2 !!
Six years later and ver 3.01 there is still no tool, still only the vertical line tool.

Well - i don´t know Ben and his problems. It´s easy to blaim the app for all kind of issues - but too often the issue is somewhere else . .

Again: i regularly have to deal with non-straight horizons. The vertical-line tool is THE tool to deal with them. Period.

What you encounter in your panos hardly can be done perfectly by ANY correcting tool besides retouching in Photoshop - it needs to be done by correct shooting and stitching, sorry to say that. So it´s only consequent that Kolor sticks to the perfectly working tool which is already built-in for years. They´re not stupid, you know.

best, Klaus

P.S. don´t forget:
a tool that corrects a non-straight horizon can only work after stitching the horizon correctly. So first hand the stitch must be correct - then you can have a straight-horizon tool working well. To get a perfect stitch you need a perfect shooting.
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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