"Steps" in the horizon  

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sixtyfive
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"Steps" in the horizon

by sixtyfive » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:56 am

Hi,

I've been using AutoPano Pro for a couple of weeks now, and there's one problem I keep encountering, especially since I often do panoramas handheld. Attached is part of a panorama showing one of these "steps"; they appear here and there but are most noticeable and disturbing in straight horizons of course.

No matter what I do (adding/removing control points, playing around with the settings in the Render dialog), these "steps" just move around. I.e. I can make one disappear but another one will pop up elsewhere. My guess is you people already know this problem very well and could maybe point me to some reading on the matter...

Cheers,
Raphael



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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:14 am

Hi Raphael!

Shooting a pano by hand always is a compromise. You need to concentrate very much on alignà­ng the fields in your viewfinder with the horizont.

Try "multiple viewpoint" and as an ultima ratio use manual positioning your images.

But the kind of your issue is very easy to correct in Photoshop.

best, Klaus
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by sixtyfive » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:38 am

Hi Klaus!

I've looked hard but either Multiple Viewpoints is hidden too well or perhaps an AutoPano Giga feature only?
Unfortunately for reasons of money mostly I'm limited to GIMP, but you're probably suggesting the clone tool, which would be available in GIMP as well?

- Raphael

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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:45 am

sixtyfive wrote:but you're probably suggesting the clone tool, which would be available in GIMP as well?

Hi Raphael!

Cut out (softness about 1-2px) the part you want to repair/match, copy it, paste it on a layer.
Then move/bend/distort/rotate the layer to match the step, flatten the image and use the clone-stamp around the area if there´s still irritation.

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:05 pm

this is an old "problem" which has been discussed e.g. in this thread
http://www.kolor.com/forum/p95140-2012-02-17-22-40-08#p95140

what is needed is a "straight-horizon-tool".
now there is a vertical-line-tool, but it works the way you describe: the steps just moves around

leifs
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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:19 pm

leifs wrote:what is needed is a "straight-horizon-tool".
now there is a vertical-line-tool, but it works the way you describe: the steps just moves around

There IS a straight-horinzon tool:

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Autopano_Giga_-_Panorama_Editor_-_Geometry_Correction#Automatic_horizon

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/Geometry_Editing#Actions_5 (look at: "Set verticals" -->> "options".

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/How_to_straighten_a_panorama

Some very important features are traditionally very well hidden in the docu - as we all know . . :P:cool:

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by sixtyfive » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:20 pm

Wow, thank you for explaining the technique Klaus! I just tried it in GIMP where there is no Softness setting for the selection tool. So instead of cutting/pasting I copied and pasted, then made the new layer, did the transformations, and merged the layers back down. Then, because of the missing Softness, the edges need to be concealed using the cloning/stamping. This is the result, and given that I have absolutely no experience using the clone/stamp tool I'm quite satisfied :-)



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by sixtyfive » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:22 pm

Leifs, I actually found that post when googling prior to asking, but it seemed focused on the feature request. Sorry for bringing this up again.

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by leifs » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:40 pm


this an "Automatic horizon" tool. Not an straight-horizon tool

klausesser wrote:http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/Geometry_Editing#Actions_5 (look at: "Set verticals" -->> "options".

this is the chasing-rabbits-tool


the first example is not relevant: it has no straight horizon
the second example is not 360 at has not a straight horizon, so the step-problem is not there


klausesser wrote:Some very important features are traditionally very well hidden in the docu - as we all know . . :P:cool:

I'm looking forward to a video showing how to straighten and de-step a horizon like this
http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/rundevarden/index.html
(I have tried the tools above but I gave in, and as you can see the sea is running uphill and downhill around the horizon :-|)

leifs
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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:20 pm

leifs wrote:I'm looking forward to a video showing how to straighten and de-step a horizon like this
http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/rundevarden/index.html
(I have tried the tools above but I gave in, and as you can see the sea is running uphill and downhill around the horizon :-|)

I very often mount the camera slanted at 30-45° to have a better downlook-angle when i´m on a balkony and so (usually on high buildings you´re not allowed to put the camera over the reiling to look vertically down). The camera is exactly over the reiling then. For that reason my horizon isn´t horizontal at all. I never had a problem to make it horizontal using the methods i described. Neither with spheres nor with mosaics.

http://www.360impressions.de/H_M/
http://www.360impressions.de/Tower

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by sixtyfive » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:22 pm

Off-topic, but where did you take that panorama Leifs? I love the landscape there!

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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:50 pm

leifs wrote:

the first example is not relevant: it has no straight horizon
the second example is not 360 at has not a straight horizon, so the step-problem is not there

What about watching the video i linked to the end? Last minutes - the spherical temple-pano?
Go to 5:27min. It´s all there what you need . . .

And it´s there for years . . . :cool:


best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by leifs » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:38 pm

klausesser wrote:Go to 5:27min. It´s all there what you need . . .
And it´s there for years . . . :cool:
best, Klaus

it misses the point: it is only 220 degrees.
it's when you connect the ends to a 360 the chasing rabbits start.
and you don't get steps when there is no line in the horizon.

leifs
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by leifs » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:41 pm

sixtyfive wrote:Off-topic, but where did you take that panorama Leifs? I love the landscape there!

It is at an island called Runde.
There is some info here: http://www.visitalesund-geiranger.com/en/The-bird-island-Runde/

here is two more panos from Runde (included straighten-horizon challenges)
http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/rundekvalen/index.html
http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/rundefyr/index.html

leifs
Last edited by leifs on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:19 pm

leifs wrote:
klausesser wrote:Go to 5:27min. It´s all there what you need . . .
And it´s there for years . . . :cool:
best, Klaus

it misses the point: it is only 220 degrees.
it's when you connect the ends to a 360 the chasing rabbits start.
and you don't get steps when there is no line in the horizon.

leifs

Leifs - you don´t need to listen to me at all and in any way.

EOD.

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:43 pm

EOD. ok :)

but not end-of-thread: it is about how to get a straight and stepless horizon, when the horizon is a line.
the "auto horizon"-tool and the "vertical line"-tool is not made for this purpose (?) in any case and they don't help very much.
this thread is one of several threads about this subject, so maybe the time has come to adress it.
a tutorial/video showing a workflow using existing tools would be fine. if there is a need for a new "straight horizon"-tool it should be on the todo-list.

leifs
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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:35 pm

leifs wrote:but not end-of-thread: it is about how to get a straight and stepless horizon, when the horizon is a line.

That´s two different themes: "stepless" and "straight". You were always talking of "straight" . . :cool:

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:13 pm

btw - here´s a picture how the camera was mounted for the recent panos.
So the horizon needed to be straightend/leveled.

best, Klaus




Last edited by klausesser on Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by spiderpig0402 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:38 pm

thanks for the tips you posted. really helped me a lot. im new into photography. keep on posting guys. and more power.

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by leifs » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:44 pm

I have revisited a pano with "straight and stepless" challenges. Maybe new knowlegde and a new try could bring me (easily) to a better result. It did not.
This where I left it last time http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/rundevarden/index.html

If you want a challenge here is a small one :)
two rows, 36 images, a .panofile, a papy XML file, a readme.txt
http://www.lstrand.no/ymse/rundevarden.zip (21MB)

the .pano-file give me a RMS 2.01. that's fine. the horizon is smooth, but looks like a roller coaster.
I tried to use the "vertical line tool", and it made the horizon more horisontal. but it also made steps.
The more I try to make the horizon horisontal the more steps !

I will appreciate a workflow on how to make this type of horizon (line) straight and stepless.

leifs


Last edited by leifs on Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:51 pm

leifs wrote:I have revisited a pano with "straight and stepless" challenges. Maybe new knowlegde and a new try could bring me (easily) to a better result. It did not.
This where I left it last time http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/rundevarden/index.html

If you want a challenge here is a small one :)
two rows, 36 images, a .panofile, a papy XML file, a readme.txt
http://www.lstrand.no/ymse/rundevarden.zip (21MB)

the .pano-file give me a RMS 2.01. that's fine. the horizon is smooth, but looks like a roller coaster.
I tried to use the "vertical line tool", and it made the horizon more horisontal. but it also made steps.
The more I try to make the horizon horisontal the more steps !

I will appreciate a workflow on how to make this type of horizon (line) straight and stepless.

leifs

Hi leifs!

"Steps" in the horizon are stitch-errors. They have nothing to do with straightening a horizon using the vertical lines tool for that.
If the rest of the pano is perfectly stitched i would use Photoshop for retouching the steps. That´s very simple and fast.

I´ll try your pano if i may!?

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:05 pm

leifs wrote:If you want a challenge here is a small one :)
two rows, 36 images, a .panofile, a papy XML file, a readme.txt
http://www.lstrand.no/ymse/rundevarden.zip (21MB)

The server doesn´t respond - i´ll try again later.

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:55 pm

Everybody is invited to have a try :)

Yes, the steps can be repaired with Photoshop.
But I would prefer to do the bulk of the work in APG.

leifs
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by klausesser » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:27 pm

leifs wrote:But I would prefer to do the bulk of the work in APG.

Me too - but that´s hard to achieve sometimes . . . :cool::cool:

best, Klaus
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by gkaefer » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:08 am

hmm - 1st try and I think no problems.

I did not used the xml, I loaded the images and did set the focal and crop manually
I detected without color correction and did use preset strong.

I had to move two sky row image to correct place and had to automatically dedect the CPs from the unlinked sky images

as you can see in screenshot I did not add CPs to create vertical links. I did not use the allign tool.

rendering with 15% and with 50% (detail screenshots)
the 13% has 2 steps, one near the boat on left side. same settings rendered with 50% and the steps are gone...

the complete pano attached is the 49xx pixel limit version (15%) with the steps.

I send you the .apw and .pano file so maybe the image paths are not fitting on your disc.

Georg






Last edited by gkaefer on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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