What are the correct settings for apg using a fisheye lens?  

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Destiny
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What are the correct settings for apg using a fisheye lens?

by Destiny » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:15 pm

Hi... since this has become a real issue for me I have started a new post.... I really really want to use apg but apg doesn't like me... I have tried so many settings that I do not even know what I have tried and what I haven't... I must be doing something very wrong....So.. I want to get to the bottom of it.. I want to know why PTGui can do it and apg cannot for me... when I know apg must be able to match or better PTGui in this....

I tried shooting my images -15 X 6 with a Zenith.. it did stitch ok in apg but not great but even worse in PTGui... The problem with that pano image from apg, it was not a Equirectangular image so I could not export as a cubic face to fix up my nadir.. so not for me... I tried to make it 2:1 in photoshop by adding a strip at the bottom but it did not accept it as a Equirectangular image..

So I stuck with my old way, 6 X -30 and 6 X +30....

I have captured a new pano today.. sorry about the messy room and crapy pano, hazards of having a baby and trying to do testing..... but you will get the point..

The first thing I want to raise is the fact that I am sure that apg doesn't recognise a 10.5 fisheye lens since it is NOT set in the automatic feature.. Even in auto its has to be put in... Even then I am not so sure it recognises it..

Second.. how come I cannot see the top and bottom of the fisheye ring on this first images.. I could on the old version... How can I see if it is sitting correct..??

The second and third images are my new pano.. you can see the nadir and yucky mess its made of the tripod head.. I like to fix my nadir patch from a cubic face, I can still do this but going by the messy tripod head there must be something very wrong with my settings in apg...

The forth and fifth images are the same set of pano images made up in PTGui.. You will see that my nadir is not too bad and the stitching is great, event thought its a crapy example of a a pano image....

So.. what am I doing soooo wrong in apg.... I have looked at Andrews screen shots of what he did and I cannot see what it can be.. until I fix this, there is no way I can do fused images in apg....

Destiny...










Last edited by Destiny on Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:20 pm

sorry... the images will not load as I want.. but I am sure you will work it out...

D...

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by mediavets » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:55 pm

Destiny wrote:sorry... the images will not load as I want.. but I am sure you will work it out...

D...

Images are displayed in sort order of their filenames.

So you can determine the order by prefixing the filename with a number.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:06 pm

Destiny wrote:I tried shooting my images -15 X 6 with a Zenith.. it did stitch ok in apg but not great but even worse in PTGui... The problem with that pano image from apg, it was not a Equirectangular image so I could not export as a cubic face to fix up my nadir.. so not for me... I tried to make it 2:1 in photoshop by adding a strip at the bottom but it did not accept it as a Equirectangular image..

It is easy to force it to 360x180 when stitching and rendering by using a Spherical projection and setting Preferred extend to Maximum projection range.

So I stuck with my old way, 6 X -30 and 6 X +30....

A very poor choice of shooting pattern, in my opinion, when using a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye on a Nikon DX body.

Since your NN4 is limited to pitch increments of 15 degrees I have already proposed that you shoot 6-around at -15 pitch and 3-around at +60 pitch. If you wish shoot the top row as 6-around at +60 pitch thats fine, but you only need three shots with 120 degrees yaw separation to cover the zenith.

The first thing I want to raise is the fact that I am sure that apg doesn't recognise a 10.5 fisheye lens since it is NOT set in the automatic feature.. Even in auto its has to be put in... Even then I am not so sure it recognises it..

Unless you have done some pre-processing of the images that has removed the EXIF data then APG most certainly will recognise a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye.

Second.. how come I cannot see the top and bottom of the fisheye ring on this first images.. I could on the old version... How can I see if it is sitting correct..??

You can zoom the view - on a Windows system it's Alt+scrollwheel to zoom, on a Mac?

The second and third images are my new pano.. you can see the nadir and yucky mess its made of the tripod head.. I like to fix my nadir patch from a cubic face, I can still do this but going by the messy tripod head there must be something very wrong with my settings in apg...

I can't see that this is worth worrying about - it's just a difference in how the two programs blenders handle things - you are not trying to photograph the pano head, you will be patching that area with your nadir shot or clone tool. And I dare say you might get a different result with a more appropriate shooting pattern.
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:34 am

OK.. Thanks Andrew.. they are in order now....

D


mediavets wrote:
Destiny wrote:sorry... the images will not load as I want.. but I am sure you will work it out...

D...

Images are displayed in sort order of their filenames.

So you can determine the order by prefixing the filename with a number.

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by Destiny » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:26 am

ok Andrew.. I now know how to zoom in on the fisheye image ring... thanks for that.. I feel like a blond for that one... :)

D...

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by Destiny » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:39 am

Hi Andrew.. well.. you are starting to make me cry.. I try so hard and now I am finally getting somewhere... Thank you so much... The Equirectangular setting you told me to do is just great.. The stitching has even improved but still not quite right.. but at least and at long last I am getting somewhere....

This is my new NNP image... it tells me that I am on the right track... Not sure which way to move the bar... Perhaps I will try 1/2 mm towards centre... and if its worse, then to the opposite...

D....


Last edited by Destiny on Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:43 am

OK Andrew.... I am getting somewhere.... which way do I move my rail.... can you tell by this...

D...




Last edited by Destiny on Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by hankkarl » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:30 pm


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by klausesser » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:41 pm


Hey Hank!

That´s funny - but needs much experience. I suggest the "classic" method of two verticals in some meters distance from each other. When they don´t change the gap between them while rotating the camera then you have met the NPP for horizontal moving. Finding the vertical axis is easy: just look at the vertical axis which runs through the center-colum - it must run through the center of the lens.

Regard that the NPP changes for different focal-lengths when you use a zoom lens!

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by mediavets » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:09 pm

Destiny wrote:OK Andrew.... I am getting somewhere.... which way do I move my rail.... can you tell by this...

D...

Not really - what shooting pattern were you using for this pano?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:20 pm

Hey.. A fisheye lens works differently....

D....


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by Destiny » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:22 pm

What you said for me to do..... 6X-15 and 3X+60....

Not to worry... I will play with this today....

D...

mediavets wrote:
Destiny wrote:OK Andrew.... I am getting somewhere.... which way do I move my rail.... can you tell by this...

D...

Not really - what shooting pattern were you using for this pano?

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by mediavets » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:50 pm

Destiny wrote:What you said for me to do..... 6X-15 and 3X+60....

D...

OK - did you also try with 6@ -15 and 6@ +60?

Your test scene is quite 'challenging' lots of plain walls and ceiling.

Regarding NPP - it's been shown that the fore-aft setting on the upper rail is not as important/critical as the side-to-side setting on the lower rail and having the camera sensor plane at right angles to the upper arm.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:16 am

mediavets wrote:Regarding NPP - it's been shown that the fore-aft setting on the upper rail is not as important/critical as the side-to-side setting on the lower rail and having the camera sensor plane at right angles to the upper arm.

Sorry, Andrew: the correctness of BOTH settings is essential! Especially on short distances like indoors. I realized different, faulty, results in stitching when the fore-aft setting on the upper rail was only 5mm incorrect!
You might be lucky and the stitcher gets it nevertheless . . but it´s not reliable.

best, Klaus
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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:32 am

Hi.. can you tell me if this is correct... Its the Auto settings when I put in my images.....

D...



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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:12 am

Hi Guys.. well you will be pleased to hear I have done it…!!! At long last!!! I had the settings on my rails right all along.. But it turns out it was my shooting pattern which was way wrong.. This was a really really really good call Andrew.. you fixed it for me…!! AGAIN!!, Without you I would be sooo lost….Thank you so much! I tried it with 3 on top but 6 works just a bit better..

So… I put the same images into PTGui and to be honest, I couldn’t fault it… In apg I reckon 99% perfect… That was set to Bicubic by default… So I put it to Spline 36 and it was 99.5% perfect so I tried Spline 64 and it was just about perfect 99.9%.. So, I achieved a great pano at long last with apg…. No editing required… The room I have done this pano in is not the best.. As you said, there is a lot of blank space, so it is my hope now, I will have success with my bracketed shots.. This will be my BIG test….

This was a long long process to get this right… Bill Bailey gave me a few extra stops for my NN4.. I used a second stop on the top of my rail to put paper shims behind it to move my rail bit by bit. My NNP looks perfect… I read that the protrusions of the camera lens setting is important but no where as important as the rail itself left to right, this has to be centre… That’s the key to getting it right.. The lens protrusion can be out a bit but not by much.. I read somewhere within 2 mm either way… I think it’s less than that though… Anyway, I am sure mine is just about right..

I hope others will lean by some my mistakes.. It never occurred to me that my shooting pattern would make sooo much difference… Anyone with a fisheye lens needs to take on board the fact that they need to play with this to ensure they are getting the best out of apg… It makes me very happy to realise that I can now use apg for my stitching… Now I can play with the fusion side of it… although I think I might stick with Photomatix since I rather like the effect….

I now have to take a new pano’s with bracketed shots, fuse them and see how I go with apg stitching them…. Oh hum!

Destiny…
Last edited by Destiny on Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:12 am

Well.... where to go from here....:rolleyes:

The first images is a fused set from Photomatix made in apg.... The second same images created in PTGUi...

Destiny....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:




Last edited by Destiny on Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:18 am

Just an add on to the above.. these results were X6 at -15 X 3 +60.... Since one of the +60 fused images was out of focus.. So I just put the remaining focused fused images into PTGui and it was... well.. perfect.. couldn't fault it... more than I can say for the the apg pano... I give up!

Good luck to those who are having success with bracketed fused images from Photomatix.. unfortunately I am not one of them no matter what I try... I now know my NNP is perfect so there is no reason why it doesn't work.... I set everything to the correct settings but its just too unpredictable...

I think I will stick with the -15 + 60 X 6 since that seems to work as normal images in apg ok.. But when it comes to fused images I will use PTGui.. Its simple, quick and creates a great pano without all the fuss...

Destiny...
Last edited by Destiny on Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:39 am

No point in putting the apg results up, far too disappointing... but here is the PTGui with 11 images... Its not the best lighting when i did this since its a yucky day but it still stitched...

D...



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by mediavets » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:52 am

Destiny wrote:No point in putting the apg results up, far too disappointing...
D...

Can we have access to a set of JPEGs?

There must be some explanation for the poor result.

Have you tried getting a good stitch with a set of images which have lots of features for auto CP detection and then saving that as a template to apply to other image sets shot using the same pattern?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:56 am

Destiny wrote:Just an add on to the above.. these results were X6 at -15 X 3 +60.... Since one of the +60 fused images was out of focus..
Destiny...

Please don't tell me you are still using autofocus?

If using a correctly set manual focus with a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye there is no way that any of the images could be possibly be out of focus. If the fused result appeared to be out of focus then that must be the result of the image fusion process, or the input images being blurred due to camera movement when shooting..
Last edited by mediavets on Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:12 am

Yes.... I am using auto focus... I do not often get an out of focus image.. I was just getting tired.. mostly the images are great...

It was only one image anyway... the rest are perfect.... Should I try manual focus... To be honest Andrew..... I don't see it making a difference....

D....

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:54 am

I did not know about the template thing.... I must be blond.. so much I do not know....

I have to do my dentist soon... I will send you those images.. my home is too yucky to send you....

I am going to try and run the same images through apg again... try different settings.. again!.... I must be missing something in the manual settings...

D....

mediavets wrote:
Destiny wrote:No point in putting the apg results up, far too disappointing...
D...

Can we have access to a set of JPEGs?

There must be some explanation for the poor result.

Have you tried getting a good stitch with a set of images which have lots of features for auto CP detection and then saving that as a template to apply to other image sets shot using the same pattern?

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:14 am

What the hell.. you have all seen my messy home so you can play with these optimised images.... There are only 11 of them but they provide a perfect result in PTGui so there is not reason why apg won't do the same... famous last words....

D....






















Last edited by Destiny on Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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