Exposure Bracketing - how it works  

Share your tips and tricks here or get help with any Autopano Pro / Giga problem!
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Destiny
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by Destiny » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:23 am

Hi Andrew.... I will send you some optimised jpg of my junk/clothes room which has the same issues... You are very welcome to give it a go to see why this is not working... There is some ghosting from PTGui on this image set... Not sure why.. Perhaps one of the sets is not in perfect focus.. not sure. but you will still be able to check it out... I have tried so many combinations its driving me nuts... Especially when I know they do stitch in PTGui..

.... I have just optimised the images from Photomatix and tested them in PTGui and it stitched no problem.. I then put them into apg and its a dogs dinner.. not good at all.. so I hope you can tell me whats wrong... Sorry I am sending you such a none interesting pano.. but I am running out of places at home to take a pano... They are on their way to you now.....

I think with my NN4 it would be a matter of buying different indent rings.. , well thats what my dad said.. but not sure if there are any such things... I am not game to take it apart...

D...
Last edited by Destiny on Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:18 pm

Destiny wrote:Someone above I remember suggesting, without reading it all again.. to set my NN4 to 10 or 12 down....with 6 round but my NN4 will only do 15 degree increments.. I am not sure if it can be changed... I tried at 15 down with 6 round with a nadir and a zenith but apg did not like it at all... I did not try to stitch it in PTGui....

-15% works fine. I used it with the 10,5mm on a Canon 20D and i use it with Josef´s head and the 5D2 and 15mm fisheye @20% overlap and 5 shots hor. +Zenith. Used it also wth the Manfrotto SPH and 6 shot hor. + Zenith @25% overlap.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:23 pm

Destiny wrote:When I did my Diploma Of Multimedia the video teacher told us to set the white balance using white card.. Oh, how wrong she was....

Yes - definitely. It´s useless. Maybe he/she was irritated by the name "White"-balance . . . :P :cool: Indeed it needs to be a card of a dedicated grey-tone.

best, Klaus
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by Destiny » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:01 am

Ok Klaus.... can you try stitching my test pano image set... Andrew just did it and it stitched.... despite the fact I only sent him 5 images... he had success... I have just tried again making sure the fisheye is set and the spherical is set too.. I have already done this but all I get is a dogs dinner... I just cannot work out what I am doing wrong.. and since you have a Mac with the same software as me, I have to eliminate the Mac software element.. but I am sure if it did not work then you would have fond the fault since you are running your images though Photomatix too.... I just do not know what I could be doing wrong... I just put the same images into PTGui and its not too bad... a bit of ghosting and missed stitches but at least its does stitch.. unlike apg for me.... no even close!!... I have just sent the results to Andrew....

D..

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by Destiny » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:33 am

Hi all.... I am really just getting into this bracketed thing so I am very much the amateur.... But even so, I have come to realise that 3 bracketed shots is not enough... I have taken 5 with much better results.. I set the camera to take -2, 0, +2, then took a new set at -1, 0, +1 and took the middle off the second shoot... I put the images into Photomatix and oh wow.. much better... The light between 0 and 2+- is too great so there is too much hard shadow... yes you can soften it but even so, 5 images is so much better... The problem in doing it in two sweeps is, it can only be done with no movement in the frame... like people moving etc... I guess a really good camera with fast shooting speed would be the way to go for sure... Oh, I really wish I could afford to buy the 3DX with wide angle lens... oh hum... one day I guess....

D...

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by Destiny » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:49 am

Well, I am ready to scream.... I tried the 15 degrees down X 6 with one nadir and one zenith and in apt it stitched very well.... So then I tried the images into PTGui but they did not want to stitch.... not to worry.. I then took my 3 X bracketed shots and fused them in Photomatix but despite trying every setting, putting the lens to fisheye and spherical these images will not stitch in apg and I also knew that at 15 degrees they wouldn't stitch in PTGiu either but I tried anyway and I was right, they didn't... One step forward and 10 backwards...

D....

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by irpano » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:01 am

Destiny, You and I, and I suspect others, have come to the same conclusion about bracketed shots being stitched within APG. I admit that I dont use a fisheye lens and maybe thats why I find that APG will stitch the single flat fused images from photomatix well. On ocassions I have had to resort to using a XML file generated in papywizard to obtain a stitch where sky or featureless areas are involved.
Also try photomatix HDR generation and tonemapped procedure as an alternative to just the fusion process. Klaus explained the difference between the two and whilst I am still at sea with the process you can see a difference in the results. A personal observation is that it depends on the dynamic range in the brackets. (A lot of my images fall within 3 to 4 stops)
Not knowing the Nodal Ninja device I wonder if you can set the yaw and pitch angles to get different amounts of overlap as I have found that the problem you had with blurred images was a result of incorrect overlap, especially when hand held. Andrew can probably determine where any problems may occur.
Whilst thinking about this whole process I tried to work out what the FOV each image from a fisheye is when converted to an Rectilinear image. (I hope my terminology is correct) If you ( not personal) take 6 images around, the click stops on the head would be 60 degres, So to obtain a 20% overlap the horozontal FOV of each individual image would need to be 75 degrees. Is it possible to pre determine the HFOV you are getting for each image form the fisheye lense. Maybe others can help here or should I start another topic on the subject.
Irpano
Last edited by irpano on Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:08 am

hi all... well I DID IT!!......

Andrew sent me his entire screen shot take... Thank you so much Andrew, I could not have worked it out without you.....

Firstly, I was not setting the Spherical in the fist panel under Panorama, I left it on Auto as I normally do... But the main thing nagging at me was Andrew's screen shot of the Detect panel on the left and Edit on the right.. There was not sign of any pre editing images which he must have seen prior to going into the Edit panel... Well, thats what I always get... Unless Andrew deleted it...

When in Edit I locate my camera type and lens and set that... I then made sure my Spherical was set THERE.. not in the Detect panel... silly me... Since there is no EXIF data after processing my images through Photomatix so much manual stuff has to be set.. I knew all this...

.... After setting my camera to the D90 and lens to Fisheye in the Edit panel, I could see the image change accordingly to the new settings.... but it was still a dogs dinner.. blurry and and overlapping all over the place, as you can see in the first image below.. I thought that was it...I thought that was my final image process. What I failed to do was Detect Again after Editing.. I did that and amazingly the pano was great.. Bloody Amazing...

Image

Destiny.... I need a holiday ....

PS.. Dear Andrew Stephens... You give up sooo much of your time in helping others.. I for one am sooo grateful to you for all your help and advice in this forum where I have learnt soo much from people like you... ;)
Last edited by Destiny on Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:11 am

I have now just about sussed it all out.. I tested a few of my older images and they all stitch as long as after editing I re-Dectect..and make sure Spherical is ticked in the Detect panel... Not sure why in the Detect panel I have to set it to Fisheye since it takes no notice of this in the Edit panel..

Not sure I like the 15 down x 6 plus a zenith.. It stitches in apg ok but I still need to setup my nadir point since its still out a bit.... but at least it stitches now....

So, how do i increase the nadir patch area to pan down more... I could increase the width of the image I guess the patch whats left... Irpano was suggesting I try 75 degree increments on my rotor but I don't have that... besides that would not be an even about within the 360....

One thing I need advice on, but only related to my own D90... I am getting a blob on my images... its not the lens.. and I cleaned the camera inside using lens tissues... Cannot send it back to where i bought it from since its overseas and I don't trust them anyway.. besides... I have had the camera for over a years... its always been there but never really caused a problem since I can edit it out.. its just a pain to keep doing it... You can see it in the red circle below... Not even bracketing the images clears it.. The problem with a pano, there is one on every image... in the same place relative to the image when taken... Any advice would be appreciated...

D....

Image
Last edited by Destiny on Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:46 pm

Destiny wrote:Ok Klaus.... can you try stitching my test pano image set...

Yes - you´re welcome! Do you mean the 12 images set or the 7/8 image set? Give me both. I´m used to work with 6 hor. + Zenith resp. with 6@-12/15° + Zenith and 1,6 crop and 10,5mm fisheye.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:03 pm

Destiny wrote:Not sure why in the Detect panel I have to set it to Fisheye since it takes no notice of this in the Edit panel..

To get the correct settings working is a bit tricky i mean: When you start APG there´s "Preferences" under "AutoPanoGiga" in the menue-bar above. Here you have to restart the app after you set something like lenses. Otherwise the app doesn´t take it!
Then in the group window you have another preferences which in parts is the same as the one before - i don´t know how much they might collide . .

A point of my constant anger is that you can´t change settings of focal-length and some after having imported the image set! Example: you imported a set of 30 images and
you set before a focal length of 35mm. Now you realise you took the images using a 50mm lens. The only way is: delete the imported images, close the import window, go to "preferences" under "AutoPanoGiga", set the lens you use, CLOSE THE APPLICATION, start it again and import the very same set of images as before again. ONLY THEN the app takes your wanted focal length.

In my eyes that´s stone-age in menue structures. I tried other ways - no way. So better double- and tripple-check all the settings!! :cool:

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:07 pm

Destiny wrote:I have now just about sussed it all out.. I tested a few of my older images and they all stitch as long as after editing I re-Dectect..and make sure Spherical is ticked in the Detect panel... Not sure why in the Detect panel I have to set it to Fisheye since it takes no notice of this in the Edit panel..

Not sure I like the 15 down x 6 plus a zenith.. It stitches in apg ok but I still need to setup my nadir point since its still out a bit.... but at least it stitches now....

So, how do i increase the nadir patch area to pan down more... I could increase the width of the image I guess the patch whats left... Irpano was suggesting I try 75 degree increments on my rotor but I don't have that... besides that would not be an even about within the 360....

One thing I need advice on, but only related to my own D90... I am getting a blob on my images... its not the lens.. and I cleaned the camera inside using lens tissues... Cannot send it back to where i bought it from since its overseas and I don't trust them anyway.. besides... I have had the camera for over a years... its always been there but never really caused a problem since I can edit it out.. its just a pain to keep doing it... You can see it in the red circle below... Not even bracketing the images clears it.. The problem with a pano, there is one on every image... in the same place relative to the image when taken... Any advice would be appreciated...

D....

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/junkstuff/blob.jpg

Dust!

best, KLaus
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by klausesser » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:13 pm

irpano wrote:I admit that I dont use a fisheye lens and maybe thats why I find that APG will stitch the single flat fused images from photomatix well.

Hi man! :cool:

In no way APG has problems stitching images which were processed in Photomatix. No matter it´s fisheyes or not. I´m doing it for years now. You just have to use the correct settings instead of automatics. Automatics usually everywhere produce problems . . :P:cool:

best, Klaus
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by Destiny » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:38 pm

Oh don't I know it... Yes.. it works and works well,,.... but only when you UNDERSTAND apg... Rule one.. If its not working close the program and reboot and start again.. or you will spend hours and hours waisting your time.... Make sure EVERYTHING is set to MANUAL.. Then you are good to go..

I just did my first successful bracketed pano which I took outside at the government building in town.. I will upload it soon when I fix up a few things... Like misaligned text on a manorial... Should be easy fixed....

I was soooo amazed that I managed a RMS of 3.33 and its not stitching 100% yet so it can only get better.. I am sooo pleased with my first true bracketed LDR pano.. It might not be perfect but I like it... I love RAW images, it certainly helps to fix up and tinker with the images...

Thank you Klaus for all your help....

Destiny...

klausesser wrote:
irpano wrote:I admit that I dont use a fisheye lens and maybe thats why I find that APG will stitch the single flat fused images from photomatix well.

Hi man! :cool:

In no way APG has problems stitching images which were processed in Photomatix. No matter it´s fisheyes or not. I´m doing it for years now. You just have to use the correct settings instead of automatics. Automatics usually everywhere produce problems . . :P:cool:

best, Klaus
Last edited by Destiny on Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by mediavets » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:50 pm

Destiny wrote:One thing I need advice on, but only related to my own D90... I am getting a blob on my images... its not the lens.. and I cleaned the camera inside using lens tissues... Cannot send it back to where i bought it from since its overseas and I don't trust them anyway.. besides... I have had the camera for over a years... its always been there but never really caused a problem since I can edit it out.. its just a pain to keep doing it... You can see it in the red circle below... Not even bracketing the images clears it.. The problem with a pano, there is one on every image... in the same place relative to the image when taken... Any advice would be appreciated...

D....

I expect dust on the sensor, if it's not on the front or rear elements of the lens. Best to get it cleaned professionally.
Andrew Stephens
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:50 pm

I have tried cleaning it.. I am sure there is a thing with a small compressed air blower which I might need to buy...Not sure what it looks like but I am sure I read something once... There is no dust on the service of the inside... I have a small lens cleaning puffer with a brush on the end of it but that does not remove it.... on my last pano it looks like a alien space ship flying across the sky... well, thats a thought....

D..

klausesser wrote:Dust!

best, KLaus

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by klausesser » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:36 pm

Destiny wrote:I have tried cleaning it.. I am sure there is a thing with a small compressed air blower which I might need to buy...Not sure what it looks like but I am sure I read something once... There is no dust on the service of the inside... I have a small lens cleaning puffer with a brush on the end of it but that does not remove it.... on my last pano it looks like a alien space ship flying across the sky... well, thats a thought....

D..

klausesser wrote:Dust!

best, KLaus


It´s less visible when you use a wider aperture! But usually lenses work best around 8/11 - and then dust on the sensor is very visible . . .

best, Klaus

P. S.: there´s an option in CaptureOne (PhaseOne) where you can "mark" the dust speckels and the programm eliminates them by using surrounding pixels to overpaint them. But that might be visible in some cases - so it´s better to clean the camera. But very carefully: compressed air sometimes has ingridients which might ruin the filter which is in front of the sensor or leave a smear on it.

So in my eyes the best is a brush with a rubberball to use the brush to remove the dust particles from the filter and blow them out by manually pushing the rubberball. Don´t know how they´re named in English http://de.shopping.com/kamerazubehoer/blasebalg/produkte?sb=1
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by lumelix » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:04 pm

Please be careful with cleaning the sensor/antialias filter with a brush. You should better not touch the sensor surface with a brush, since thereby only more dust arrives at it.
In the worst case one distributes still oil or grease of the camera mechanics on the sensor.
I clean the sensor of my D3 normaly with pressured air or nitrogen in a duster, e..g from dust off, hama or roline.
Sometimes there are spots that can not to be removed with pressured air. Then I use special cleaning swaps for digital sensors, e.g from VisibleDust or Photographic Solutions.
Have also a look to this pages:
http://www.bythom.com/cleaning.htm
http://www.cleaningdigitalcameras.com/methods.html
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Martin

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by tived » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:56 am

HhhDestiny,

Take your camera into nikon or their local repair place. You may end up damage your sensor by dragging dust/objects around on your sensor causing more damage.

Trust me the $60+ is money well spend - unlike the multi-thousend bill i got for a sensor replacement.

Henrik

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by Destiny » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:18 am

hi... wow thats all good advice....Thank you.. emm.... I did not know what the sensor was... When I took the lens off I wiped the two glass plates inside with lens tissue using my finger... If its good enough for the lens I thought it would be good for the glass inside.... but the Blob is still there so I might take it into a Nikon place to get it checked out... The Blob has been there since I bought the camera... Next camera I buy I will defiantly check for dust.... I am sure there is a very special compressed air thing for sensitive electronics... Normal compressed air is full of oil and dirt so no why I would use that....

Re: Bracketed shots.... I just cannot believe how close I have been getting....(All I had to do was press Detect again) Not to worry, its all working fine now.. Its a pity that we have to use a third party software app for fusion since the apg is just not up to the mark... but... it might be when I understand it more.... If it could all be done in apg with more tooling and features, would help with the missing data after being processed using a third party software app... Then the issue with setting everything to manual would not be an issue unless you chose to use a third party app...... But at the moment its a matter of having to use software like Photomatix for its output quality and control features...

At the moment I put one stack onto Photomatix to check the fusion type/quality I am wanting and then save my instance and then batch process all the images.... apg is there is far too basic for this... There should be at the very least some kind of increments to show what the setting are, at the moment there is nothing to show this accept for a visional graphic, to me.. so what, a numeric display would be much better.....

Image

Destiny
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by Destiny » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:43 am

apg is really unpredictable... yesterday when I finally had success in stitching my pano I was thinking that was it... but not so... Yesterday when I stitched my fused images from Photomatix I achieved RMS of 3.33, very happy with that but the pano had a miss stitch around the Memorial text. I tried fixing it in Photoshop but thats painful so I run the images through apg again... The first stitch gave me a RMS of over 19, terrible.... I then tried again and that game me a RMS of about 15+... I closed the program but that made little difference... So I rebooted and that gave me a RMS of 3.36 so I waked it up to HIgh with Max and I got a RMS of 3.05, and the text on the Memorial is excellent... In fact the whole pano is grate..

I guess this is a lesson for us all... If you get a dodgy stitch result, reboot your computer and give it another go, perhaps try this a couple of times to make sure... Don't bother closing the apg since it will not work...

I will upload my pano when I fix up the nadir patch but for now, check my pano image out.... I am very very happy with this bracketed shoot... The colours are really nice and natural to me....

Destiny

Image
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by Destiny » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:27 am

Closer look..

Destiny

Image

Image

Image
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by klausesser » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:26 pm


Hi Destiny!

I suggest to use Lightroom to eliminate CAs (very visible in No.4). It makes the shots clearer and sharper. If you have Nikon NX2 it does very well in eliminating CA and undistort images automatically.
You also can make a preset in Lightroom - there are lots of lens-profiles which do a great job! In Photoshop CS5 too.

best, Klaus
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by Destiny » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:22 am

Hi Klaus... I download the trial of Lightroom and did the lens correction as well as edited the CA as much as I was able to with my very slight knowledge of LR.. The problem after lens correction, the pano was not a VR image anymore.... It distorted it from this shape... I did the lens correction in Photoshop too and same thing.. its not a proper pano photo anymore.... Not sure if I did something wrong or not.... Its probably great for still wide angle images, but fora fisheye image it did not work for me.... I will have to play with LR more....

hey, anyone doing the editing of bad stitching would know it can be a time consuming and a bit of a pain... This fused pano of mine has no editing at all, its how it came from apg with a RMS of 3.03... Not bad considering the processes its been through... Anyway, I got playing with the different Interpolators in the Render window... I used Bicubic to render my pano, but there is still a bit of dodgy stitching even thought the RMS is very good... So, I tried the rest of the Interpolators and found if I had a bad stich in one area using a particular Interpolator, I could choose a different Interpolators like Spline64, which would stitch differently... So I did a bit of a experiment... I rendered a pano image using the Bicubic and then a second using the Spline64. In Photoshop I then took the bad from one image and the bad from the other and then Merged the two images into one... Not sure if this is a useful or useless tip.... but it works for me.... It was really quick and easy to do....

Destiny...
Last edited by Destiny on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:23 am

HI... I think a 10.5 fisheye might be great for use in small areas for capturing greater detail but not particularly good for wide open areas.... I tried editing my pano but for every nice effect it creates a bad area somewhere else.... Not sure how a full frame camera with a 16mm fisheye would go but perhaps I think that a good full frame camera with a wide angle lens and Merlin or other type pano head would be the way to go for best results....

D..

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