Exposure Bracketing - how it works  

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Destiny
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by Destiny » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:14 am

Hey.. can anyone tell me why when I save a apg file that when I reopen it the images or Detecting are not there....

D...

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by klausesser » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:53 pm

Destiny wrote:Hi Klaus... I download the trial of Lightroom and did the lens correction as well as edited the CA as much as I was able to with my very slight knowledge of LR.. The problem after lens correction, the pano was not a VR image anymore.... It distorted it from this shape... I did the lens correction in Photoshop too and same thing.. its not a proper pano photo anymore.... Not sure if I did something wrong or not.... Its probably great for still wide angle images, but fora fisheye image it did not work for me.... I will have to play with LR more....

hey, anyone doing the editing of bad stitching would know it can be a time consuming and a bit of a pain... This fused pano of mine has no editing at all, its how it came from apg with a RMS of 3.03... Not bad considering the processes its been through... Anyway, I got playing with the different Interpolators in the Render window... I used Bicubic to render my pano, but there is still a bit of dodgy stitching even thought the RMS is very good... So, I tried the rest of the Interpolators and found if I had a bad stich in one area using a particular Interpolator, I could choose a different Interpolators like Spline64, which would stitch differently... So I did a bit of a experiment... I rendered a pano image using the Bicubic and then a second using the Spline64. In Photoshop I then took the bad from one image and the bad from the other and then Merged the two images into one... Not sure if this is a useful or useless tip.... but it works for me.... It was really quick and easy to do....

Destiny...

Hi Destiny!

You can use the CA correction without having the fe-image undistorted! Just use "manual correction"!

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:05 pm

Destiny wrote:HI... I think a 10.5 fisheye might be great for use in small areas for capturing greater detail but not particularly good for wide open areas.... I tried editing my pano but for every nice effect it creates a bad area somewhere else.... Not sure how a full frame camera with a 16mm fisheye would go but perhaps I think that a good full frame camera with a wide angle lens and Merlin or other type pano head would be the way to go for best results....

D..

Using a fisheye for landscapes resp. for wide open areas means to have few details with far-away objects. For that purpose i suggest a 35mm (on your camera a fov like 50mm) or 50mm (guess about a fov like 85mm) as shortest focal lengths.
Of course you get some big amount of shots then - but also a very high resolution! It´s worth a try anyway!
I suggest to start using a usual wideangle lens instead of the fisheye for wide areas.

best, Klaus
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by Destiny » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:27 pm

Hi... I just lashed out and bought NKRemote by Breeze.... I can now do up to 15 bracketed shots and time laps photography too, which might come in handy.... Some people buy the D7000 for this feature but its far cheaper to buy this software.. The cost difference between the D7000 and the D700 for me would put the D700 ahead in the to buy list... for the fx full frame feature.. I bought a green screen a few weeks ago so I can now play with that too.... I just wish the Nikon camera had blue tooth so I did not have to have a cable....

I just tried out 11 bracketed shots and found that the shadows were much softer. The fused images are much more natural using more bracketed shots than 3...

Destiny....

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by Destiny » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:32 am

Hey... now I have NKRomote.. does any of you guru's know of a bracket I can attach to my tripod what will mount my 15'' loptop too.. Perhaps across two leges on an angel I guess....

There are so many stupid web sites with stupid things like this one.... http://lifehacker.com/5312703/turn-your-cars-cup-holder-into-a-laptop-stand

My tripod is light, carbon fibre so cannot put something sticking out or it will topple over.... Such a same the Nikon is not blue tooth...

Destiny..

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by klausesser » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:43 am

Destiny wrote:Hey... now I have NKRomote.. does any of you guru's know of a bracket I can attach to my tripod what will mount my 15'' loptop too.. Perhaps across two leges on an angel I guess....

Hi Destiny!

Years ago i bought a kind of "basket" to attatch a portable videorecorder to a tripod. Was made by Manfrotto . .

aaaannd :-) : here it is: http://www.naaptol.com/price/827905-Manfrotto-139-Tripod-Caddy-Basket.html

inexpensive and very useful for a laptop aftersome modifikation.

A definitely better solution you can get from Gitzo/Spheron - but cost a fortune: http://www.spheron.com/fileadmin/user_upload/spheron/img/images/SPHERON_STUDIO-0280355.jpg

i suugest the Manfrotto way - if they produce it still . .

best, Klaus

P.S.: you hang it onto 2 spread legs - fixes itself. But i use to use an additional Manfrotto "Superclamp" to be sure it doesn´t get loose . . :cool:
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Destiny » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:00 am

Thank you Klaus.... Wish you hadn't shown me the Gitzo one... now I want another thing I cannot afford...... I will try to find a cheaper similar looking one.....

I persevered with my pano so now I have it just about right, in my eyes.... The tone under the tree's on the right is beautiful... It was very very dark under the tree's on the day... Bracketing is just s cool... I love it.... Well... This is my FIRST bracketed photo so I think its ok for first try.... :cool:

The stitching gave me a RMS of 2.2....:lol:;):D


Destiny....


Last edited by Destiny on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:31 am

How do I set an image I put up so when clicked it shows bigger...

PS.. Finally got my pano loaded.... not entirely happy but it can only get better... its my first go at fused images....

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/DPSVRs/IMB/Ipswich-Memorial-Building.html

D
Last edited by Destiny on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by mediavets » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:28 am

Destiny wrote:How do I set an image I put up so when clicked it shows bigger...

D

You use the Image upload facility - see screenshot.


Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
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by Destiny » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:51 am

Thank you Andrew.... done.... much better way of doing it....

Hope you like the image

D..

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by Destiny » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:07 am

Just when I thought I was happy with my pano, along came LightRoom.... I will buy it Klaus... I only edited a bit.. but it made a huge difference.. Well, I think so.... The text is clearer and so are the bricks... perhaps still not perfect but its still a first effort.....

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/DPSVRs/IMBLR/LightRoomEdited.html


Destiny....

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by gkaefer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:53 pm

Destiny wrote:Just when I thought I was happy with my pano, along came LightRoom.... I will buy it Klaus... I only edited a bit.. but it made a huge difference.. Well, I think so.... The text is clearer and so are the bricks... perhaps still not perfect but its still a first effort.....

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/DPSVRs/IMBLR/LightRoomEdited.html


Destiny....

Destiny,

if youre interested in LightRoom 3 than see this limited offer. They sell 3000 copies. and you will have to fill out some quesionaire which is coming with the box....
99€ instead of 299€ for a full version. The shop can be trusted... buy there since 2007...

http://www.edv-buchversand.de/adobe/url.php?cnt=lightroom3

Google translation:
http://translate.google.at/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edv-buchversand.de%2Fadobe%2Furl.php%3Fcnt%3Dlightroom3&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
(PS the "jetzt bestellen" ... "order now" button does not work in translation mode....)

Liebe Gruesse,
Georg
Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:36 am

Hi Georg.. wow.. that is a good price.. Its even a couple of dollars cheaper than then Adobe's own web site for Teacher price..... but I have found this one that just beats your price and the Adobe web site price but not sure if they are ok.... they are in Aus so probably are ok....

D..

PS... Thank you Georg.. as useral, you always seem to know a greate source of software..... ;)


Last edited by Destiny on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:42 am

Destiny wrote:Hi Georg.. wow.. that is a good price.. Its even a couple of dollars cheaper than then Adobe's own web site for Teacher price..... but I have found this one that just beats your price and the Adobe web site price but not sure if they are ok.... they are in Aus so probably are ok....

D..

Hi Destiny!

I´m getting emails every day from traders who sell cheap Adobe products. Be carefull - many of them sell illegal copies and make them look absolutely original! But if you know your dealer it should be fine, i guess.

best, Klaus

P.S.: i see it´s an academic license - didn´t see it before, sorry. My son is going to buy Photoshop CS5 - he´s a student of molecular biology - and he gets a phantastic price . . . ;-)
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Destiny » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:48 am

Hi Klause.... yes you are right.. I bought ZBrush on the cheap from one of those companies, but it did not work as I knew how it worked since I owned an earlier version... So I contacted the Pixalogic company and they said its not real so I had to take it off my Mac... But I got my money back...

Yes, the LightRoom above is academic.. I have an account with Adobe.... I just finished talking to them about pricing... I asked why the one above was cheaper than their own academic web site... Apparently their web site includes postage which makes them the same. After I told them what I wanted to use Lightroom for they said I couldn't buy a teacher licence but they still sold me a commercial licence for the same price as academic since I use all my software as a teaching aid, and they said I can put it on my school laptop too... So I just ordered it... Adobe sales are really great. I have bought heaps of software from them for many of the schools I have taught at.. they always seem to do nice things for schools and teachers...

D..

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by gkaefer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:08 pm

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:Hi Georg.. wow.. that is a good price.. Its even a couple of dollars cheaper than then Adobe's own web site for Teacher price..... but I have found this one that just beats your price and the Adobe web site price but not sure if they are ok.... they are in Aus so probably are ok....

D..

Hi Destiny!

I´m getting emails every day from traders who sell cheap Adobe products. Be carefull - many of them sell illegal copies and make them look absolutely original! But if you know your dealer it should be fine, i guess.

best, Klaus

P.S.: i see it´s an academic license - didn´t see it before, sorry. My son is going to buy Photoshop CS5 - he´s a student of molecular biology - and he gets a phantastic price . . . ;-)

addon from my side: this dealer I mentioned is ok. I got informed that my ordered Lightroom will be directly delivered from Adobe Ireland to me....
Georg

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:02 pm

Hi, I have been very busy again testing my workflow.....

I keep going back to apg since I really like the software but oh man... For me it never seems to work consistenly... With apg I take one step forward and two back... again.. again .... again I go back to it and spend so much time...

so, where does that leave apg for me... well, in limbo... I am still out on it....

ptp is fantastic.. and I can see this software getting better and better...

Over this past year I have learnt so much and tried very hard to create great pano images... I am almost at the end of working out my workflow...

First make sure my camera is set to 'everything manual'. It took me a while to go full manual, but now I understand the importance of manual white balance.
Set to taking RAW, unfortunately its +jpg, and most defiantly bracketed shots, even for outside. Taking RAW image is very important since you get to finalise all the settings to make sure its all just right before proceeding to the next step, and...... you get to save as a 16 bit TIF...

Next, use Photomatix to fuse images, run with a single set of bracketed images to test before batching the rest as 16 bit TIFs... Photomatix is a fantastic piece of software.

At this point you can fuse your nadir too... as a 16 bit TIF output..

Now, sorry kolor... I have used PTGui with much better success.. I do not have to set the data or anything else.. I just have to load the images, optimise to test and achieve a result of 'very good' and then stitch / save as pano as a TIF.. thats it..Done!. With apg I have to make sure of so many things only to find its not perfect.... Perhaps its still something I am not doing right... If I turn my Mac off and try again it sometimes makes a difference...

The following images are screen shots results from exactly the same fused image sets... First image is the Nadir from APG...
The second is the cornice from the same pano image..

The third is the Nadir screen shot from PTGui pano... the forth is the cornice from PTGui same image...

As you can see, the results from PTGui is perfect. I did not have to set the lens or make of camera. I did nothing, I just loaded the fused images into PTGui, optimised to test and stitched.. No editing.. I then put the final pano into Light Room for slight editing....

If anyone has anything else to suggest I try in apg tell me and I will be happy to try it....

My settings are still a tab out but not by much.. I will move my stops the thickness of paper until its perfect..

Destiny...








Last edited by Destiny on Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:25 pm

Hi.. yet more testing going on here....

It remains with me that if I want to use Photomatix fused images then PTGui is the best option producing the be best and quickest results....

However, if I put the same images into apg and stack them, set the control points to detect all stack levels and set to highest detection level, the stitching is much better than fused images from Photomatix, but still not great.. After detection I can go to Edit and check off fusion, but the problem with that option is the lack of recorded movement beyond default... If I set it to what I think looks nice, I have to consider the nadir patch... There is no option to save the setting or even show a digital readout to keep a record of the adjustment made, so the safe option would be to keep to what ever the default is.. Which all come's down to the very reason why people look beyond apg to get more options in fusion. Then there comes the problem with using Photomatix where the image data is lost when attempting to stitch these outputted images in apg, so it has to be put manually into apg to enable stitching but the stitching is not good. The nadir image above clearly shows that something is not right....yet in PTGui its almost perfect...

Even though the stitching from stacked images in apg is much better than images from fused from Photomaix, they are still not perfect, even set to the highest detection level...

If I put the images through EnfuseGUI the data is retained so this is not an issue, however the results are not good but not bad ether. An outside pano you would probably get away with it.. ... Also, if I put fused images from Photomatix into PTGui the image data is again detectable.... Which is probably why it stitching so well...

Many of these issues are a result of how the images are captured.. If a normal lens were used then the results are much better... If a robotic head were used then the issue with overlap and accuracy in shooting the images etc is eliminated so therefore the results are better again.... apg is just great for single layered stitching, mega pixel panos using a normal type lens... especially with a robotic head... For me, the conflicting issues arise when I want to stitch bracketed fused images from Photomatix... if apg were to have a lot more options in fused editing with an option to save present results in edited images, then that would be a lot better and I for one wouldn't have to look outside apg to fuse my images. After all, most of the best image sets are from bracketed images... In Edit I can see in the preview window the adjustments made in Fusion and they look great, but I cannot save this setting and I cannot rely on achieving the same setting with my nadir image. apg is great in many areas, the interface is wonderful, the tooling is great too, but when it comes down to fusion of images its sadly lacking..

Destiny....
Last edited by Destiny on Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:57 am

Hi Georg.... Just wondering if you managed to buy your Lightroom ok... I kept wondering where my serial was since I thought Adobe sent it to me but they don't... you have to log on to the 'case' and there it was.... silly really... Its all registered now as a commercial but I only paid student price so good for me... Anyway Georg, just thought I would let you know you might have to log onto the Adobe web site to get your serial....

I have to try and persuade my Principal to buy a seat licence of ptp and apg but not sure how I will go... budgets are really tight now.... I feel that young students should be introduced to real world software... i have ordered an Olympus Tough camera for my students to use but this was as much as I could afford, no way I will let them loose on my D90.... It takes wide angle photos so I am hoping it will work ok with apg.... even if its just one row....

Destiny...

gkaefer wrote:addon from my side: this dealer I mentioned is ok. I got informed that my ordered Lightroom will be directly delivered from Adobe Ireland to me....
Georg

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by mediavets » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:07 am

Destiny wrote:. i have ordered an Olympus Tough camera for my students to use but this was as much as I could afford, no way I will let them loose on my D90.... It takes wide angle photos so I am hoping it will work ok with apg.... even if its just one row.... Destiny...

Which model of the Olympus Tough range did you get?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:42 am

This one Andrew.... Stylus Tough-8010 Digital Camera (Silver) http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Stylus+Tough-8010+Digital+Camera+%28Silver%29&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

I bought it from B&H... It is only costing me $231.... Now thats a story... A couple of months I ordered an L bracket and a lens filter but they took forever to arrive... then about 4 weeks after it arrived in Aus using the tracking, with a lot of checking with Aus post it finally arrived.... But then a week later I received a letter from Aus post Manager saying "Sorry. it cannot be found and it will be up to the seller to file a claim", which they did... Then I asked them for a store credit which I used to buy the Olympus camera with... With the great Aus $ and the store credit I did well.... Really stupid of Aus post telling me its lost when I have been playing the stuff for over a week....

I realise there is a newer version of this camera coming soon with 3D options but it also cost a lot more.. My husband bought this camera for the fishing club he is in and he thinks its a fantastic camera with great images and is built like a tank..... so great for my students....

What do you think about his camera Andrew.. is it ok... If I bought this from an Aus store it would cost over $480...

D..

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by irpano » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:20 am

Destiny, Picking up from you posts and the replies that you are generating, I went back and did a few tests with my gear and bracketing. PLEASE NOTE THAT I DONT HAVE A FISHEYE and the following refers to a Canon 30D with 60mm fixed lense.
I used both the merlin head and my own homemade device that replicates the nodal ninja.
My main concern was - how effective APG was in dealing with bracketed shots as compared to using Photomatix first and then stitching with APG.

Pre Shooting - Scene, via light meter showed a range of 2 stops.
- Individual images varied about 1/3 stop

Shooting - Set camera to manual to expose 7 images per position @ 1/3 stop
- Longest exposure to -1/3 stop under brightest to preserve highlights.
Shot a sequence of 7 bracketed shots for 3 positions in a single row. (Testing only)

Workflow - 1 Used Photomatix to process each bracketed set to make 1 flat tone mapped image
then stitched 3 flat images with APG into 1 pano
RESULT - RMS 1.9, no stitch errors and colour (Not corrected in APG) OK . (I shot B&W to see tonal range)

Repeated the sequence on the homemade head and results were similar with RMS 2.1

Workflow 2 - Placed 21 raw images into APG and stitched to 1 Pano
RESULT - rms 2.3, Stitch good and colour good.

Workflow 3 - Placed 21 raw images from homemade head into APG and stitched
Result rms 2.5, stitch good colour good.

workflow 4 - a) created a xml file in papywizard for 1 X 3 (to use with flat photomatixtone mapped images)
b) and a xml file for 3 X 7 raw images
RESULTS as expected - xml file of 3 images , Stitch shows error in vertical position
XML file with 3 X 7 images from merlin head - NO Problems

As i said firstly I was concerned with how well APG could process these bracketed images and on close inspection I have to admit that APG, Whilst not allowing any pre setting of control over each bracketed set, did perform to my satisfaction. The preprocessed photomatix images did have a very slightly better tonal range than those from APG and this could have come from the setting is used in photomatix. (A more dynamic range might show a bigger difference)

As I also said in the opening paragraph that I DONT have a fisheye lense, so I am suggesting that the problems you are having could be related to A) the algorithim in APG that deals with fisheye lenses
B) The lense you have.
C) the setup of the Nodal Ninja - Re overlap
D) the settings used in APG

Sorry to be so long winded but I thought It might give you a few ideas toward solving the issues you have. I believe that Klaus uses a fisheye and has no troubl with his panos.

hope you get the problem solved soon.
John

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by Destiny » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:16 am

Hi John... some good testing you have done... I have had great results too from the normal lens.. apg stitches at less then 1.5 RMS for me from Photomatix images so very pleased with apg on this.. The stitching is perfect.. I leave colour unchecked for my Photomatix images and they look great in the pano... But, like you said.. it might be fisheye lens related... I am sure it is in one way, its also the pitch I have to use which effects the overlap... My apg settings are fine.. I am sure of it.... Klaus is using a full frame camera and a bigger fisheye lens so he should have no problems... He can also take images at 12 degrees.... So, my issues are...

Cannot put the NN4 to 12 degrees...
Not a full frame camera
and a small 10.5 fisheye lens....

I can tighten up my NN4 to 12 but then it does not sit into the mount fully so it sticks out a bit which then effects my NNP..... so cannot do that...

I am just trying out 15 down and 60 up... oh hum..... never done that one before.....

D.....

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by irpano » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:43 am

Destiny, You have me intrigued with the angles and FOV involved with the fisheye lense. Can you tell me what FOV you get for the 1.6 sensor with the fisheye lense you have.
Exanple if the diagonal FOV is 180 degrees what is the horozontal FOV in the image on the sensor. I cant work ot how 15 degrees from horozontal can give about 20 percent overlap



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by mediavets » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:59 am

irpano wrote:Destiny, You have me intrigued with the angles and FOV involved with the fisheye lense. Can you tell me what FOV you get for the 1.6 sensor with the fisheye lense you have.
Exanple if the diagonal FOV is 180 degrees what is the horozontal FOV in the image on the sensor. I cant work ot how 15 degrees from horozontal can give about 20 percent overlap

Here's the overlap you get shooting 6-around at -15 degrees pitch using the Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye on a Nikon DX (1.5x crop factor) body.


Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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