Moving image in AP Giga 2.51 doesn't work in Mac OS 10.6  

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Asher Kelman
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Moving image in AP Giga 2.51 doesn't work in Mac OS 10.6

by Asher Kelman » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:34 am

Hi,

I have two questions about manual stitching in Autopano Giga 2.51 on an Intel 2.66 GHZ Dual Core Xenon Mac running 10.6 and using a mouse with no scroll wheel.

1. I can't get an image to move with the mouse. i don't want to change the yaw, pitch or roll, rather, move an unlinked image to its correct position so as to add control points. Something i'm not seeing, I guess!

2. Also, how does one add control points to non contiguous images in the control point editor list. One can only use the two image boxes for adjacent images in the list, but one can't alter the order of the image list. Is there a keyboard short cut for selecting images which are not in sequence?

Thanks,

Asher
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by Joe210 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:12 pm

Hi Asher,

you don't have to move the pictures by "hand" with your mouse (and as far as I know it isn't posible). The position of the pictures is only defined by control points. So if you link two pictures together, AP also moves it to the appropiate position.

To your second question: you don't have to change the order of the images in the control point editor list. To select the pictures you want to link together, select the first image with the left mouse button and then select the second picture with your left mouse button while holding down the CTRL-key on your keyboard.

Have fun! :-)
Chris.

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by Asher Kelman » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:38 pm

Joe210 wrote:Hi Asher,

To your second question: you don't have to change the order of the images in the control point editor list. To select the pictures you want to link together, select the first image with the left mouse button and then select the second picture with your left mouse button while holding down the CTRL-key on your keyboard.

Thanks, Joe,

That's very helpful. Now I have to to experiment with this. Now while we are dealing with making links, where are the instructions for actually choose the exact spots to link as used in PTGui? So far, I can only see how to draw the yellow squares to have Autopano Giga find the points for me. Sometimes, it doesn't pick up what I see clearly matches. Maybe it's part of a smoot metal door, for example.

Asher
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by Joe210 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:14 am

Hi Asher,

as described in the documentation of AutoPano (see here) you can use three different tools: add CP by drawing a rectangle, add them manualy and by using geomtric analysis.

Usually the first method works pretty good. But don't try to select very small areas, it works better if you select bigger areas. Just play around a little with this tool and then you will see, how to get good results.

Chris.

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by klausesser » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:30 pm

Asher Kelman wrote:Hi,

I have two questions about manual stitching in Autopano Giga 2.51 on an Intel 2.66 GHZ Dual Core Xenon Mac running 10.6 and using a mouse with no scroll wheel.

1. I can't get an image to move with the mouse. i don't want to change the yaw, pitch or roll, rather, move an unlinked image to its correct position so as to add control points. Something i'm not seeing, I guess!

2. Also, how does one add control points to non contiguous images in the control point editor list. One can only use the two image boxes for adjacent images in the list, but one can't alter the order of the image list. Is there a keyboard short cut for selecting images which are not in sequence?

Thanks,

Asher

Hi Asher!

You can move a single image or a group of images by selecting the arrow-symbol in the editor´s upper row AND THEN select the symbol for single images on the left. Very fine: you can move each image or a group of images in real-time with visual control.

best, Klaus

here´s where the symbols are:


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by mediavets » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:41 pm

Asher Kelman wrote:Now while we are dealing with making links, where are the instructions for actually choose the exact spots to link as used in PTGui? So far, I can only see how to draw the yellow squares to have Autopano Giga find the points for me. Sometimes, it doesn't pick up what I see clearly matches. Maybe it's part of a smoot metal door, for example.

Asher

It sounds as if you are familair with PTGui?

If so what is it that you hope APP/APG will offer you that PTGui does not?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Asher Kelman » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:49 pm

mediavets wrote:
Asher Kelman wrote:Now while we are dealing with making links, where are the instructions for actually choose the exact spots to link as used in PTGui? So far, I can only see how to draw the yellow squares to have Autopano Giga find the points for me. Sometimes, it doesn't pick up what I see clearly matches. Maybe it's part of a smoot metal door, for example.

Asher

It sounds as if you are familair with PTGui?

If so what is it that you hope APP/APG will offer you that PTGui does not?

A good question, medavets, (but strange to address someone from the U.K., Cambridge, of all great places, by a pseudonym)!

In very large 360 degree panos of an outside public square, where the tripod is 18 inches from a wall, there are some bad errors dealing with detail poor portions of architecture, like doors or concrete blocks. With Auropano Giga, my really only stitcher I use every day, it's very hard to correct the George Braque like staccato joins in, for example aluminum doors that have no detail, in small pieces that one gets photographing with a 50 mm lens so close to the door. (BTW, major improvement comes from using the designation, "Fisheye" for the panorama stitching dialog box even though the lens is a 50 mm f1.4!

So I'm looking at PTgui to help solve that. The interface for examining images to search for place to make links is very logical, with two numbered film strips side by side. With 240 images, one simply scrolls one of the strips to look for the place for a new set of links. It's far easier to study without having to search through a crowd of distorted forms in the autopano picture with the links showing. So my idea is to be able to export the project 99.9% complete and beautiful from APG which I know to PTGui for refinement.

Also, PTGiu Pro 9.0 has some especially easy to use tools for dealing with unwanted, (or new), included people or objects. Simply painting these red in the stitcher removes them! Adding a patch and painting a figure green adds that person/object/feature! That's a very useful tool that means one does not have to use Photoshop to make a mask, easy for removing things but a tad harder for including something/someone new.

In addition PTGui Pro has extra projections that are interesting options for the output.

Lastly, as 16 BT PSB files from APG don't seem to open in CS4, (This Photoshop version can't open this file), I'd hope that this PTGui final route, might lead to a better PSB file packaged structure that was now compatible with Photoshop.

So why not use PTGui from the outset. First, it is primitive compared to APG in finding links automatically in the first place. It gets lost and the results are a hopeless mess for my architectural projects. Secondly I love APG!

So there you, I'm utterly loyal to APG and Lionel, but struggling to get my pictures in the 16 BIT output I want with the last details perfectly stitched!

Thanks in advance for any solutions!

I appreciate any help I can get! :)

Asher
Last edited by Asher Kelman on Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Asher Kelman » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:05 pm

Joe210 wrote:Hi Asher,

as described in the documentation of AutoPano (see here) you can use three different tools: add CP by drawing a rectangle, add them manualy and by using geomtric analysis.

Chris.

Thanks for your pointers. That's what I use every day, that yellow rectangle and it's very smart! Geometric analysis doesn't work for structures that have no geometry, such as portions of smooth metal. The manual stitching I have not been successful with, as of yet.

klausesser wrote:Hi Asher!

You can move a single image or a group of images by selecting the arrow-symbol in the editor´s upper row AND THEN select the symbol for single images on the left. Very fine: you can move each image or a group of images in real-time with visual control.

best, Klaus

Sounds really promising, Klaus, you smart fellow! I'll have to try that!

Asher
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by mediavets » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:09 pm

Asher - do you use a motorised pano head for these high res. panos?
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by Asher Kelman » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:21 pm

mediavets wrote:Asher - do you use a motorised pano head for these high res. panos?

Your help is appreciated!

I did use the Gigapan Epic with a Canon Powershot G11 and then tried out the Gigapan for DSLR's. Working on roofs in the dark, that machine is tough to use. The outer arrows are confused easily with the inner arrows and the panel is hard to use as it cannot be removed from the unit and worked as a remote. A big drawback. So I use a Sunway head with click stops on a carefully leveled solid platform.

The subsequent rows are estimated in the angles of the cameras tilt.

I was thinking of returning to the Gigapan for DSLR's and remove the control unit and have a long tethering cable for roof or tall ladder work. I was wondering about the motorized unit sold by Kolor using Papywizard. I use a Mac so I wonder if that is a solution for me.

Still, it would be great to access PTGui's special features until APG gets the fixes in the pipeline. Especially important is the ability to work with 16 BIT output to photoshop for a PSB files.

Thanks for any input you might have.

Asher
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by klausesser » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:50 pm

Asher Kelman wrote:I was wondering about the motorized unit sold by Kolor using Papywizard. I use a Mac so I wonder if that is a solution for me.

Hi Asher!

I use a Merlin for several years now - with PapyWizard/Nokia and the T&C hand-controller. There´s definitely no better solution for the money it costs. Both controlling devices write xml files for positioning the shots in APG. That works good - needs some skills nevertheless.

The Merlin including (!) conrolling costs about 500.-€ completey. That´s without any competition. And it works fine! Using the T&C controller speeds up the Merlin and is straighter in using while PapyWizard/Nokia is a bit (!) more versatile.

A matter of taste in the end Both do very fine work - i defiitely prefer it over the Gigapan Epic or the definitely more expensive Epic Pro.

best to you, Klaus
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by Asher Kelman » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:00 pm

klausesser wrote:
Asher Kelman wrote:I was wondering about the motorized unit sold by Kolor using Papywizard. I use a Mac so I wonder if that is a solution for me.

Hi Asher!

I use a Merlin for several years now - with PapyWizard/Nokia and the T&C hand-controller. There´s definitely no better solution for the money it costs. Both controlling devices write xml files for positioning the shots in APG. That works good - needs some skills nevertheless.

The Merlin including (!) conrolling costs about 500.-€ completey. That´s without any competition. And it works fine! Using the T&C controller speeds up the Merlin and is straighter in using while PapyWizard/Nokia is a bit (!) more versatile.

A matter of taste in the end Both do very fine work - i defiitely prefer it over the Gigapan Epic or the definitely more expensive Epic Pro.

best to you, Klaus

So Klaus,

What does one gain or lose in each of the control systems and has anyone ported it to the iphone or ipad? I can get the Epic Pro at a good price as I was a beta tester, ~ $400. Just would need to gut the controls and put it on a leash and change the blacK rubberized buttons for lit ones! Also, BTW, the Panogear version of the Merlin is "out of stock". What's the difference from the regular Merlin?

Asher
Last edited by Asher Kelman on Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:36 pm

Asher,

Where are you based? The reason I ask is that it impacts on costs of various robotic pano heads.

What camera(s) and len(es) would you wish to use with a robitic pano head?

Would you mainly be shooting partial panos (pano FOV less than 360x180)?

Would you also wish to shoot spherical panos (pano FOV 360x180)?
Last edited by mediavets on Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:40 pm

Asher Kelman wrote:What does one gain or lose in each of the control systems and has anyone ported it to the iphone or ipad?

Asher Kelman wrote:What does one gain or lose in each of the control systems and has anyone ported it to the iphone or ipad?

Both controlling devices basically do the same - PapyWizard on Nokia does a bit more like timelapse and is very widely configurable (which on the other hand makes it more sensitive for mistakes) . . . but i prefer to use the T&C handheld. It´s straight and simple and does perfect work in a reliable manner.
For shooting spheres using PapyWizard you have to edit a xml file for setting the positions to shoot. You don´t need to do that with the TC controller.
The TC computes them very precisely from the informations of the lense´s focal length and diagonal or horizontal FOV and sensor size - you give the information ONCE at home by typing in which cameras and lenses you want to use. You can store abaout 100 lenses and cameras which you can select from a list on the touchscreen. Very easy and very fast to configure at home and to use/set on the scene. PapyWizard on Nokia N800 via Bluetooth works also very fine - but is definitely more circuitious to handle and more sensitive to incorrect handling (which in the field happens quite often). It takes a lot more time to get it run in the field - but when it runs it´s fine.
The TC is connected via a short piece of cable - no hazzle with BT adress and so on. TC gets powered from the Merlin - so no battery probs.
The Merlin´s accus (Josef´s set) last about 6000 shots - including feeding the connected controller.

Porting to iPad/Phone isn´t practicable. Ask Apple . . :cool: If you know somebody who can build an app - go ahead . . :cool:

best, Klaus
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by Asher Kelman » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:43 pm

mediavets wrote:Aher,

Where are you based? The reason I ask is that it impacts on costs of various robotic pano heads.

Hi Andrew,

I've discovered your fine name! :)

I'm located in Los Angeles. Panoramas are part of my every day work. Casually, it allows carrying just a digicam on walks and then sampling textures or views for sketches. Also I use stitched panoramas of architectural spaces for my digital art constructions.

I know one does not have to pay the dreaded VAT tax you guys have. Almost everything is cheaper here, I guess, even Ferragamo shoes, if you go for those fine things.

What work do you do?

Asher
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by mediavets » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:50 pm

Asher Kelman wrote:Also, BTW, the Panogear version of the Merlin is "out of stock". What's the difference from the regular Merlin?

Asher

The Merlin mount included in the Panogear package is no different from a Merlin mount sourced elsewhere BUT Kolor bundles a set of high capacity rechargable Lithium Ion batteries with charger and adapters, plus an additional rail, a Bluetooth adapter, and a camera specific shutter control cable.

These bundled accessories - and the Touch Controller described by Klaus - are variously available separately from Kolor (France), SkiVR (France), and T&C (Germany), and Claude Vanhemmens (Belgium).

SkiVR also sells the Panogear package.

Since you are based in the USA it would not be worth your while to import the complete Panogear package because of shipping costs and possible import duty.

If you want a Merlin-based robotic pano head buy a Merlin mount in the US and just import the accessories you want/need.
Last edited by mediavets on Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:16 pm

Asher Kelman wrote:What does one gain or lose in each of the control systems and has anyone ported it to the iphone or ipad?
Asher

I'll let Klaus talk about the Touch Controller - he's used one since early prototype days and I've never even seen one in the 'flesh'.

Papywizard is a software controller - there's no 'smarts' in the Merlin mount at all - it's written in Python which makes it cross-platform. There are versions for the Nokia N800 and N810 Internet Tablets which offer handheld/pocketable wireless platforms for Papywizard, for Windows, for Mac and for Linux.

Papywizard is not available for iDevices because the Python 'infrastructure' required is not available on iDevices.

Papywizard can control the Merlin mount, Rodeon VR, Pixorb, the upcoming head from T&C, and various homebrew robotic pano heads.

Papywizard has two main modes of operation for shooting panos - Mosaic mode and Preset mode. Mosaic mode shoots a regular matrix/grid of images (like Gigapan mounts). Preset mode shoots a user defined arbitrary sequence of shooting co-ordinates; it is normally used for shooting 360x180 panos here one wishes to have fewer images in rows approaching the zenith and nadir.

Papywizard will run in simulation mode - without being connected to a Merlin mount - so you can download it and get a feel for how it may be configured and operated (choose from the latest development versions) :

http://www.papywizard.org/wiki/Download#Developementversions
Last edited by mediavets on Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Asher Kelman » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:25 am

klausesser wrote:
Asher Kelman wrote:Hi,

I have two questions about manual stitching in Autopano Giga 2.51 on an Intel 2.66 GHZ Dual Core Xenon Mac running 10.6 and using a mouse with no scroll wheel.

1. I can't get an image to move with the mouse. i don't want to change the yaw, pitch or roll, rather, move an unlinked image to its correct position so as to add control points. Something i'm not seeing, I guess!

2. Also, how does one add control points to non contiguous images in the control point editor list. One can only use the two image boxes for adjacent images in the list, but one can't alter the order of the image list. Is there a keyboard short cut for selecting images which are not in sequence?

Thanks,

Asher

Hi Asher!

You can move a single image or a group of images by selecting the arrow-symbol in the editor´s upper row AND THEN select the symbol for single images on the left. Very fine: you can move each image or a group of images in real-time with visual control.

best, Klaus

here´s where the symbols are:

Thanks again, that's helpful. However it's still hard to see just a few images, especially non-stitched orphans!


Klaus and Alexandre too :),

It would be so simple to have an extra check box by the list of images at the side by side dialog box. One could add a green check mark to any two pics one wanted to link. That would be fast. In the same way, one should be able to add a list of numbers above the entire pano and only those images would appear. That way just those could be seen and moved together without any confusion from all the other images and links.

Sometimes the non-linked images are just too hard to find!

Of course, a tutorial on linking images, (that are not neighbors in AP Giga'a numerical sequence), would also be so helpful! I'm sure it's intuitive to those who have mastered the methodology. Right now, linking two numerically distant images is something I've not been able to accomplish without making other images in between disappear to force these two images to appear in the dialog box adjacent to one another so they can be selected together. That, however is a royal pain!

One other simple way might be to have a drop down numerical scroll box for selecting images to link under each of the two panels where we can add those yellow rectangles to try to find links.

Thanks so much!

Asher
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