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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:04 pm

Destiny wrote:I have realised that my tripod might jigger a bit if I am not careful, partially on slippery floors..



There are two ghosts i realized so far:

One ist the price-tag on the cup left from the center - the other is on the boxes on the board in the background on the left.

Both are jiggles between bracket-exposures - you can regognize that because the surrounding area nearby is NOT ghosteted (which it would need to be if would be a stitch-error).

All in all it´s ok stiching bracketed stacks in APG and fusioning them here in excellent quality. But he Fusion-Tool is just too unpredictable i mean.Thats why i always suggest fuioning/tonemapping brackets first.

And you now learned that fusioning/tonemapping in Photomatix definitely does NOT cause stitcherrors in APG . . :cool:

QED ;)

best, Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:40 pm

No no.. I am going to prove to you that Photmatix images do effect the stitching in APG.. I will process several options from Photomatix and then stitch in APG.... I hope to show you a difference..

As long as you set the images in Photomatix for captured using a Tripod, you should not get any ghosting, if there is, then the tripod has moved.. I have not seen any signs of that.. I only see the ghosting on stitching but I will make sure again..

I have set my VR Drive to capture 5 shots with an EV steps of 2+/1. My D800 has a light meter built in to set the correct exposer, I then set my VR Drive to Average between that, two shots ether side..

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:45 pm

Destiny wrote:For me XML does not help with Stacks.


But it does indeed! You just need to use the stacks and the xml correctly.

I had Josef change the xml-generating in the way that i can choose betweesn two strategies:
1) the xml records EACH single exposure - which means each of the five exposures per position gets recorded.
2) the xml just records ONE exposure at each position - while the camera shoots FIVE exposures per position.

Stacking in APG then records only ONE "position" at each position - because the other four exposures on each position are at the very same place anyway.
This way irritation by different exposed stacks cam be avoided.

This works perfectly! You just need to tell APG that there are four more exposures at each position. No problem.

Shooting with ONE *recorded* exposure per position is my preferred stragegy - even when i use 12 or more bracketing-steps at each position with my PromoteControl on the D800.

Destiny wrote:So, the process is back to pre-fused images.. My lens is fine to use which I am happy about. My stitching pattern is good..


Correct! :cool:
Nevertheless i suggest to process the RAWs coming from the camera first in C1 or LR before processing them to HDR - for compensating CAsand sharpening.
In Photomatix there is a very helpful feature which i ALWAYS activate: automatic ghost-removing.
Moving/vibrations between exposures - caused by tripod or wind and so (or moving flames btw.) - get very good compensated this way.

Destiny wrote:Now I have to focus on Pre Processed images to see what works best.. I will test the XML and no XML.. and I will show you that you get a difference with Photomatix images depending on the settings. Since I have the large images you can see the difference more so...
This post was titled a BUG since I could not process Stacks with Hard Links. This is still the case to I would still suggest its a BUG.. Since I feel that APG should be able to do this.. Using hard links with my 50mm or 35mm is fine.. Even my 10.5 fisheye.. But not with my 14-24mm.....


The 14-24mm has intense distortions @14mm - which are rather complex (that´s the reason it´s not an optimal lens for panos).

Regarding APG not even recognizes it as a rect. lens - how can we be sure it can handle this kind of complex distortions correctly?

As said: this lens is somewhat "special" in terms of pano-shooting (in the meantime I sold it, btw.).

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:58 pm

Destiny wrote:No no.. I am going to prove to you that Photmatix images do effect the stitching in APG.. I will process several options from Photomatix and then stitch in APG.... I hope to show you a difference..


You wouldn´t be able to prove it ;)

Destiny wrote:As long as you set the images in Photomatix for captured using a Tripod, you should not get any ghosting, if there is, then the tripod has moved..


That´s not the only reason for ghosts. Objects can move by wind or other influences between the brackets.
It´s very likely they do.

Destiny wrote:I have not seen any signs of that.. I only see the ghosting on stitching but I will make sure again..


Look at the price-tag on the cup front-left.

I
Destiny wrote: have set my VR Drive to capture 5 shots with an EV steps of 2+/1.


Why THAT? Asymmetrically? This hardly makes sense to me . .

Destiny wrote:My D800 has a light meter built in to set the correct exposer, I then set my VR Drive to Average between that, two shots ether side..


There´s something strange, Destiny. "2+/1" is somewhat funny - can you explain why you use THIS kind of setting?

"set the VR Drive to "average" . . means WHAT in detail?

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:02 am

I realise that the 14-24mm is a unique lens but I really love it.. Partially for panos.. It provides a much sharper and better images than my 10.5 fisheye.. Heaps better.. I could never imagine selling it.. Far too valuable.. and they have gone up in price since I bought mine..

Now I am very interested in what you said here about the XML.. Not quite sure I understand.. I can export my XML from my VR Drive to use in APG.. If I want a single XML shot code, all I need to do is tell my VR Drive that I am only shooting a single exposer. I do not have to shoot the images.. I can simply export that code to use for pre-fused stacks.. But...

Am I able to use my Single XML code and add stacks into APG.... That might remove the ghosting issue.. and relive the issue of using Hard Links...

Destiny...

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:For me XML does not help with Stacks.


But it does indeed! You just need to use the stacks and the xml correctly.

I had Josef change the xml-generating in the way that i can choose betweesn two strategies:
1) the xml records EACH single exposure - which means each of the five exposures per position gets recorded.
2) the xml just records ONE exposure at each position - while the camera shoots FIVE exposures per position.

Stacking in APG then records only ONE "position" at each position - because the other four exposures on each position are at the very same place anyway.
This way irritation by different exposed stacks cam be avoided.

This works perfectly! You just need to tell APG that there are four more exposures at each position. No problem.

Shooting with ONE *recorded* exposure per position is my preferred stragegy - even when i use 12 or more bracketing-steps at each position with my PromoteControl on the D800.

Destiny wrote:So, the process is back to pre-fused images.. My lens is fine to use which I am happy about. My stitching pattern is good..


Correct! :cool:
Nevertheless i suggest to process the RAWs coming from the camera first in C1 or LR before processing them to HDR - for compensating CAsand sharpening.
In Photomatix there is a very helpful feature which i ALWAYS activate: automatic ghost-removing.
Moving/vibrations between exposures - caused by tripod or wind and so (or moving flames btw.) - get very good compensated this way.

Destiny wrote:Now I have to focus on Pre Processed images to see what works best.. I will test the XML and no XML.. and I will show you that you get a difference with Photomatix images depending on the settings. Since I have the large images you can see the difference more so...
This post was titled a BUG since I could not process Stacks with Hard Links. This is still the case to I would still suggest its a BUG.. Since I feel that APG should be able to do this.. Using hard links with my 50mm or 35mm is fine.. Even my 10.5 fisheye.. But not with my 14-24mm.....


The 14-24mm has intense distortions @14mm - which are rather complex (that´s the reason it´s not an optimal lens for panos).

Regarding APG not even recognizes it as a rect. lens - how can we be sure it can handle this kind of complex distortions correctly?

As said: this lens is somewhat "special" in terms of pano-shooting (in the meantime I sold it, btw.).

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:05 am

This is my pre-fused images using XML.. You can see that the detection suggests errors.. If I do not use XML I do not get these errors..

I am now rendering without using the XML..

Destiny...
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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:14 am

This is a screen shot of NO XML.. Like I said, the way I am using the XML does not aid in the stitching it causes issues... I still get some small stitching issue on the ceiling but less..

So.. the question is. how can I use it differently..

Destiny...
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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:19 am

Destiny wrote:This is my pre-fused images using XML.. You can see that the detection suggests errors.. If I do not use XML I do not get these errors..

I am now rendering without using the XML..

Destiny...


Destiny - why do you think this is caused by prefusing before stitching??

You need to understand how the xml-import works. You can "skip optimization" when you import or you can allow automatic optimization after import by NOT "skipping optimization". Both strategies work very much different.

When you set "skip optimization" you definitely need to optimize manually after the import. Do you do that? How do you do it in detail?

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:43 am

I have already been over this feature with Lionel a while ago.. For me it caused more issues.. I checked to skip optimisation as you can see. I processed my images.. You can see that the RMS are really high.. I go to Edit and Optimise.. Still terrible..

Destiny...
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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:50 am

Destiny wrote:I have already been over this feature with Lionel a while ago.. For me it caused more issues.. I checked to skip optimisation as you can see. I processed my images.. You can see that the RMS are really high.. I go to Edit and Optimise.. Still terrible..

Destiny...



Un-check "skip optimization" as well as "clean wrong links" - i told you i didn´t check "skip optimization" and i NEVER check "clean wrong links".

Optimize to a RMS of max. 2.

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:04 am

Right.. I got confused as to what you wanted me to try. However, it is ALWAYS "Un-checked" by default.. Its my normal workflow.. But I have just tried to un-check "Clean wrong links".. Never done that before.. The final render shows no difference at all.. Still has issues in the same places using XML.. Better without it..

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:13 am

It must be my NPP out.. When I flick between images slices in Edit, I can see the moment.. Zoom in at the picture here at the wall.. You will see... I was sure it was perfect... I am going to have to move it .25mm each time..

Destiny...
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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:46 am

I can use the XML with PTGui and its heaps better than APG.. It really comes down to the same old story that either APG has issues or I don't know how to use it.. Perhaps the NPP is out. I can only to move it bit by bit.. It seems to be perfect to me but.. is it.. I will go back to the antique centre, and move it .25mm for about up to a 1mm each way... At least I know that with the setting I have now I can use PTGui without too many issues.. I might try with ISO detections with APG.. There are a lot of straight lines on the ceiling which is a good measure to see if APG is doing a good job..

Destiny..

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:35 am

Here is something weird. If I use the XML plugin to assist with stitching and Un-Check the Hard Links for Control Points, then process I get a RMS of 3.44... If I then go into Settings and Check Hard Links, then process it makes no difference, I get the same looking detected pano with same RMS. Hard Links from there works.. But as we know, if I add the images and then Check Hard Links all I get is a blob..

I am certain that this is a bug..

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:14 am

Destiny wrote:Right.. I got confused as to what you wanted me to try. However, it is ALWAYS "Un-checked" by default.. Its my normal workflow.. But I have just tried to un-check "Clean wrong links".. Never done that before.. The final render shows no difference at all.. Still has issues in the same places using XML.. Better without it..


With me it works very well using your xml and your mage-stack . . .

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:20 am

Destiny wrote:I am certain that this is a bug..



I very much doubt that, sorry.

If it was a bug your stacks with your xml wouldn´t work for me also.
But for me they work fine on from the start and without second optimization.

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:23 am

Destiny wrote:It must be my NPP out.. When I flick between images slices in Edit, I can see the moment.. Zoom in at the picture here at the wall.. You will see... I was sure it was perfect... I am going to have to move it .25mm each time..



??????

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:53 am

Destiny,

I seems that although you and Klaus are both using your image set you are never using quite the same workflows.

Andrew

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:09 am

mediavets wrote:Destiny,

I seems that although you and Klaus are both using your image set you are never using quite the same workflows.

Andrew



That´s the point, Andrew. That´s why i several times described my workflow very detailed.

Klaus

PS: what YOUR experiences using Destiny´s XML as well as her image-stacks?

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Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:28 am

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:Destiny,

I seems that although you and Klaus are both using your image set you are never using quite the same workflows.

Andrew



That´s the point, Andrew. That´s why i several times described my workflow very detailed.

Klaus

PS: what YOUR experiences using Destiny´s XML as well as her image-stacks?

I have tried stitching the small version of her images using stacks with hard links - without the XML - and I get a 'blob' as the result, despite the software reporting a pano FOV of 360x180.

Yet if I stitch the single exposures of the level I use as the reference level in the stack it stitches OK.

I don't understand why it doesn't work correctly using hard links and stacks.

Andrew

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:37 am

mediavets wrote:I don't understand why it doesn't work correctly using hard links and stacks.


Well - i used the stacks WITH xml and WITHOUT xml. Makes only minor difference in stitching.

In both cases i didn´t get a "blob".

Klaus

(i used the medium sized images)

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:50 am

What you need to try Klaus is what both Andrew and I have done.. Can you please add the stacks into PTP, no xml plugin.. Just add and then set Hard Links.. Stack and set the reference image to 3 and then process...

What happens your end..??

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:05 pm

Destiny wrote: Can you please add the stacks into PTP,


That wouldn´t work at all . . ;)

Destiny wrote: no xml plugin..


Which "xml plugIn"? I don´t know any "xml plugin".

Destiny wrote:Just add and then set Hard Links.. Stack and set the reference image to 3 and then process...

What happens your end..??


"just add . . " . . what do you mean precisely?

WHEN i use stacks i usually do it using xml also - that´s why i had Josef modify the controller this way. I very rarely use stacks WITHOUT xml.

But i´ll give it a try using the stacks without xml and with hard-linking - though i see no sense in that at all.

Btw: Georg also uses the Panoneed and he also had his controller modified for being able to choose both ways of using the xml with stacks.

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:17 pm

klausesser wrote:WHEN i use stacks i usually do it using xml also - that´s why i had Josef modify the controller this way. I very rarely use stacks WITHOUT xml.

But i´ll give it a try using the stacks without xml and with hard-linking - though i see no sense in that at all.


Klaus

Why is this not sensible?

If the scene offers ample features for CP detection why would one need to use the XML - and many users will not have a robotic head anyway.

FWIW I think used reference level 4 fro detection.

Andrew

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:20 pm

klausesser wrote:But i´ll give it a try using the stacks without xml and with hard-linking - though i see no sense in that at all.



ok - here we go:

imported the images-stacks.
set "hard links"
stitched.
no problem, no "blob".:

Bildschirmfoto 2015-07-24 um 13.10.42.png


Bildschirmfoto 2015-07-24 um 13.11.10.png


Bildschirmfoto 2015-07-24 um 13.10.42.png
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