BUG!... ?? [SOLVED] - View the solution

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:58 am

I have LightRoom, but did not know I could un-distort the images... I will look into trying that..

Some time ago I posted a request for advice on using the 14-24mm from anyone who is using it... I did not get any respoce...

Destiny...

[Panoram1x]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Panoram1x » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:48 pm

Well - APG is a STITCHER first hand. It´s NOT a HDR-processor, it´s NOT a RAW-processor - and it´s NOT an Espresso-machine . . or whatever you´d like it to be . .

It´s "just" a stitcher - and it´s an excellent one.

That´s why i´m sugesting for years and years to use a dedicated HDR-processor and also a dedicated RAW-processor prior to stitching.

HDR-processing/Tonemapping as well as RAW-processing is VERY "special" - let specialized software handle it if you want good results.

Btw.: i ran several tests importing bracketed sets into APG, stitch them and export them as .hdr or .exr - worked fine!

But fusioning in APG in my eyes is not reliable enough for achieving constantly the results which you expect - too much
try-and-error, too time-consuming.

Klaus

Klaus, absolutely agree.
APG is a superb stitcher and better leave RAW development and fusion / HDR to the specialists. That's what I do and recommend.
The difference is that I do not use APG from a professional approach, I do it as an activity that does not count the time spent, it is a time of fun.
What I'm doing is to seek limits. To see what you can get and not within APG. In this process and dialogue with others sometimes they appear good ideas that someday may be part of the possibilities of APG.
And why not Autopano working well the HDR / Fusion?
... and even getting a good ristretto!!

Last edited by Panoram1x on Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Panoram1x]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Panoram1x » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:54 pm

I have LightRoom, but did not know I could un-distort the images... I will look into trying that..

Some time ago I posted a request for advice on using the 14-24mm from anyone who is using it... I did not get any respoce...

Destiny...

Destiny,

Have you tried DxO?

The correction of the distortion seems to me more successful than Photoshop.

To me DxO do a good job and I fixes the undulations on the marine horizon that APG fails, neither prior way through Photoshop.

Last edited by Panoram1x on Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[marzipano]

Re: BUG!... ??

by marzipano » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:06 pm

Some time ago I showed in this forum this comparison that shows the difference in this respect between the results of Autopano and Photomatix.

Well - APG is a STITCHER first hand. It´s NOT a HDR-processor, it´s NOT a RAW-processor - and it´s NOT an Espresso-machine . . or whatever you´d like it to be . .

It´s "just" a stitcher - and it´s an excellent one.

That´s why i´m sugesting for years and years to use a dedicated HDR-processor and also a dedicated RAW-processor prior to stitching.

HDR-processing/Tonemapping as well as RAW-processing is VERY "special" - let specialized software handle it if you want good results.

Btw.: i ran several tests importing bracketed sets into APG, stitch them and export them as .hdr or .exr - worked fine!

But fusioning in APG in my eyes is not reliable enough for achieving constantly the results which you expect - too much
try-and-error, too time-consuming.

Klaus

I think we all agree we that Klaus

The point I and others are making is that Kolor should not even be trying to sell a HDR/Fusion solution as a premium add-on when it clearly doesn't have all the required functionality

I'm sure you can get good results using a tripod and on a scene that doen't contain any movement at all (even clouds and waves let alone ducks and people) but for outdoor scenes or hand-held photography it is no good as (unlike Photomatix) it does not have alignment or anti-ghosting inside a bracketed set

best
Martin

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:19 pm

I have LightRoom, but did not know I could un-distort the images... I will look into trying that..

Some time ago I posted a request for advice on using the 14-24mm from anyone who is using it... I did not get any respoce...

Destiny...

Aaron sent me a mail some hours ago relating to the 14-24mm and panos:

"See if she can share the .xml file? I LOVE the 14-24mm f/2.8. I consistently get the best spherical panos out of it over any other lens. It’s my most used and most loved lens."

So what does this tell us?

Can you share an xml-file and the set of JPGs to test your issue?

Klaus

[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:43 pm

Hey folks!

It’s been a while since I’ve logged in here or posted. Been a real busy summer! I skimmed the 7 pages of this thread, and it’s drifted quite a bit over a variety of topics. I thought I’d share a few thoughts to confuse things even further… LOL!

I shoot with a Nikon D810, several lens, Promote Control, Panoneed robotic head (and also a Really Right Stuff manual pano/gimbal head), on a Really Right Stuff TVC-34L tripod and leveling base. A solid tripod that reduces vibration is a must for some of this stuff, particularly gigapixel and bracketed photos. I also skip a ballhead to avoid a high center of gravity and use a leveling base instead below the panning head, much more stable and easier to level. I highly recommend Really Right Stuff Versa 3 and 4 series for shooting with robotic panning heads. The wider diameter carbon fiber tubes cut down vibration dramatically compared to Gitzo and other great brands.

Nikon’s 14-24mm f/2.8 is my favorite lens for spherical panoramas. The quality is extraordinary and the shooting patterns are simple when using a manual panning head. I also shoot a lot of spherical panos at night and that lens is incredibly sharp wide open. I also shoot with a shaved Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye, but I find it requires almost 50% overlap to get even stitching without obvious seams between blurry and sharp areas of a photo, as it was never intended to be used on a full frame sensor, and certainly not one as critical as a 36MP D810 which reveals every flaw. I may switch to a Sigma 8mm f/3.5 instead and lose some light to shoot less photos for spherical timelapses at night (which requires as few photos as possible).

I use the .xml file from my Panoneed with PTGui Pro and AutoPano Giga. Frankly, I use PTGui as much as possible first and AutoPano or Photoshop for things it won’t blend very well. PTGui is about 40x faster than APG for most of my projects, and it handles spherical panos much better for me. APG on the other hand handles blending skies, clouds, water, etc. much better. Photoshop’s blending is miles ahead of both programs, but is incredibly slow, requires oodles of RAM, can’t handle a 360° seam without lots of manual work, and requires aligning with another program first most of the time. I wish I could import my PTGui projects into APG for blending, but that has never worked for me; the photos don’t line up correctly at all. In the end of the day, I use whatever program(s) get the job done the fastest and easiest for me as time is money.

I don’t use HDR brackets much at all anymore since buying the D810, the dynamic range is just incredible if your exposure was perfect to begin with. I still shoot brackets, but I rarely use them. My night panoramas usually require blending two exposures manually in Photoshop first, several seconds for the sky and many minutes for the ground. I stitch them as a single exposure after manually blending them. This works better than attempting to blend two different panoramas. When I was doing more HDR, I was usually batching them out with Photomatix Pro, SNS-HDR, or Oloneo first and still stitching as a single 16-bit exposure. Occasionally I’d stitch 32-bit files and tonemap later, or even stitch all the brackets, but those two workflows are vastly more complex and prone to ghosting and errors in my experience. For some panoramas though, it was the only way to handle the extreme dynamic range, such as this series: http://www.aaronpriestphoto.com/panoram ... all_Point/

Anyway, hope something in this long ramble helps?

[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:55 pm

I should add... Lightroom has a nice HDR type feature with 16-bit DNGs. It's not the same dynamic range as using Photomatix, SNS-HDR, etc. but it does have a very clean, natural look to them. I REALLY wish it had batching however. [PLEASE listen to us Adobe! Timelapse and panoramic photographers NEED batching!] And Lightroom also has a nice panorama feature. It's slow, and you have no control over alignment, but for many scenes it does a good job with a nice DNG file with almost all the data of the original RAW files that you can still edit. You are of course limited to the size that Camera RAW's engine can handle, which is 65,535 pixels along the greatest side or 512 megapixels total, whichever comes first. Like Photoshop, it also won't handle spherical or 360° panoramas that wrap around.

Regarding lens distortion and vignetting, I don't touch that in Lightroom or Camera RAW when using PTGui Pro as I find PTGui's vignetting feature can usually handle it better. I DO remove chromatic aberration in Lightroom under the lens profile as Adobe does a better job on the RAW files than anyone else. However, when I stitch with APG I do use Adobe's lens distortion and vignetting in Lightroom / Camera RAW.

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:10 pm

I totally agree with Aaron.. Its an amazing lens.. It took me a log time to gain the confidence to use it with my VR Drive. It was a big move for me.. But now I have I feel confident in using it.. My 14-24mm is on my D800 camera the most.. I absolutely love it..

I already shared images in this post Klaus, the Medium sized images with xml in on page 2 of this Topic...

I am sure I am very close.. I am also sure APG can do the job but.. I need to find out what I have wrong.. It can only be my shooting pattern or the number of images I am capturing..

Can you please ask Aaron what his setting are. What shooting pattern is he using.. Does he use the 14mm focal. I have found in the past that PTGui is are more flexible with settings.. When my NPP was out with my 10.5 fisheye, it was only by .5mm on the A rail and 2mm on the B rail. Then APG did a perfect job. But PTGui did a perfect job as it was.. I am sure there are many users of the fisheye lens that unknowingly have a wrong NPP setting but since PTGui work anyway, they have no reason to doubt their settings..

I a very exciting about getting my settings right.. I am sure I am very close.. But questions still arise with APG with Stacks and Bracketed shots.. I guess we all need to realise that this feature is very issue orientated. Far better to use Pre Processed images. Using pre processed images with PTGui makes a beautiful job with my 14-24mm..

Destiny..

Aaron sent me a mail some hours ago relating to the 14-24mm and panos:

"See if she can share the .xml file? I LOVE the 14-24mm f/2.8. I consistently get the best spherical panos out of it over any other lens. It’s my most used and most loved lens."

So what does this tell us?

Can you share an xml-file and the set of JPGs to test your issue?

Klaus

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:16 pm

No I haven't.. Sounds interesting. Which option do I need to use. Is it just the DxO OpticPro 10.. There is a Mac version for Trial...

Destiny..

Destiny,

Have you tried DxO?

The correction of the distortion seems to me more successful than Photoshop.

To me DxO do a good job and I fixes the undulations on the marine horizon that APG fails, neither prior way through Photoshop.

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:50 pm

Aaron, thank you for your insights..

To be honest I cannot do without bracketed shots. Partially when it comes to complicated lights from scenes like this Antique Centre. Also, with the Australian sun, its vital in my opinion to use bracketed shots. Partially during summer..

It is known that certain colour spectrums are a challenge in the southern hemisphere, partially in Australia. As you probably know, if you spin a disc with the true rainbow colours on it, it will turn white. That's the nature of White Balance as in Nature.. Far difference from capturing images indoors in a studio with controlled lighting..

This pano below has 5 backed shots with EV's of 2+/-.. My VR Drive does an great job with HDR settings.. All I need to do now is find the very best shooting pattern for my 14-24mm at 24mm focal.. What do you use for this.. I was thinking that perhaps try 7 shots, down and up.. At the moment I shoot 6X 45 and 6X -45.. Its actually the default that my VR Drive came up with.. With such a wide angle lens I really do not see a Zenith or Nadir working too well..

Also, what in MM is your 14mm focal set for your NPP, from the face of your camera plate to the tripod centre.. I am sure mine is correct... but.. who knows..

I would also like to know that your MM or when using 24mm focal.. I do not get issues with this focal with APG but I need to capture twice the number of images.. I really do not want to do that..

BTW.. This Post went off into many different directions so I started an new one focusing more on the 14-24mm.. with APG and PTGui.. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27787

Thank you...

Destiny..

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[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:07 pm

Can you please ask Aaron what his setting are. What shooting pattern is he using.. Does he use the 14mm focal.

I use 14mm a lot for my night sky spherical panos. When shooting on a manual panning head I use 2 rows of 6 photos, rotating every 60°horizontally and +/-39° vertically. The Panoneed has it's own calculation, typically with a dedicated zenith shot. I'd have to look up the .xml file later to check.

[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:15 pm

For interiors, I still use HDR. Less complicated and faster shooting than lighting a full room for a virtual tour. I don't do many of them anymore, I'm mostly nature and scenic work outside now. Here's an old one from a couple years ago, shot at 14mm on the Panoneed: http://www.aaronpriestphoto.com/pano/20 ... ala_Ranch/

My nodal slide measurement probably wouldn't help you much, as it differs from camera to camera and L plate to L plate. Even my D700 and D810 are slightly different. But, for what it's worth, I use Really Right Stuff L plates, MPR-192 rail, and at 14mm my camera is set to 2.5cm and the Panoneed clamp to 16.6cm with the D700 and no vertical grip.

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:37 pm

Yes, I understand.. and if I were to shot night scenes or outside, I would probably go with just one shot too.. Bracketed shots outside with moving features could be a real challenge..

I realise that each rig would have different measurements on the bottom real but.. that is why I asked your the face D810 camera face plate to centre for your tripod.. That must be the same as mine.. The centre of the camera setting would be unique to your gear, different quick release clamp etc.. But the face plate to centre will the same as mine.. It has to be..

I put a steal ruler on the face plate and projected to the top rail increments. I then put a pice of tape on it. I then measured that mark to the tripod centre. There is a about a 7mm difference I think between the 14m focal and the 24m focal.

Destiny...

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:44 pm

I have just measured mine.. Its 94mm from face plate to the 0, centre point.. That coincides with this graphic for 14mm focal..

Destiny..

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[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:48 pm

I don't know, I've never measured it that way. All that matters to me is spinning on the correct spot in the field, for the slides, plates, etc. that I'm using. So the numbers don't help others that don't have the exact same equipment. Translating the numbers to some sort of universal database has always been problematic, as it is very difficult to accurately measure to things like the tripod socket hole, or the lens flange, etc. for the average user. Not to the precision we are dealing with. I've tried in the past for PhotographyLife.com's lens database, but we found users had no way of measuring it as precisely and it only confused them. Also, the tripod socket hole moves around from one camera model to another.

Last edited by aaronpriest on Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:48 pm

What do you mean by face plate though? The lens flange?

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:52 pm

Well, I am only really using the Leans Profile measuring option from this website. Which really helps.. It works with my 35mm, my 50mm and my 10.5 fisheye.. But there is nothing for the 14-24mm.. http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database

Destiny...

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:55 pm

No Aaron, the camera face place. When it's mounted on your Rail.. I put a metal ruler on the face pace of the camera and project it to the increments on the top rail.. I then put some tap on that increment.. It does not matter what that is.. I then use the ruler to measure, from that point to the 0 point of the rig..

Destiny...

What do you mean by face plate though? The lens flange?

[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:00 am

Every camera is going to have a different measurement though, my D700 and D810 for example have different sizes from the tripod socket. Better to measure from the lens flange which doesn't change or the CCD itself, which is more difficult. I think it's easier to just pan left and right looking at two objects for parallax than any other type of measurement. It's far more precise than you can measure with a ruler, unless you are using a laser.

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:13 am

Well, I tired the panning method and fond it not so accurate at all.. Physical measurements seem to be far better. I was actually referring to your D810 camera face plate since I have the D800, same body.. I do not use a laser I use a vernier calliper. But a good ruler is ok..

Having no measurements at all and doing it by panning means that there is no way to share any data.. Its all visual...

I have just checked and found that the difference between the 14mm focal and 24mm focal is 12mm. That means I need to push my camera forward by 12mm for the 24mm focal to achieve the correct NPP...

Destiny..

[aaronpriest]

Re: BUG!... ??

by aaronpriest » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:30 am

I think I found it was 10.5mm difference between 14mm and 24mm, but I don't recall for certain offhand. I measure through the lens with a laser and trace it out on paper, then translate that to my nodal slide and go from there. In the end, it's whatever produces the best stitching pattern (without control points) in my "torture room", a dining room with 5 doors, 3 windows, and square tiles on the ceiling and floor. LOL!

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:46 am

Oh.. 10.5mm means either my 14mm is out or my 24mm is out.. My 14mm focal is 94mm from camera face plate to 0, which should be the entrance pupil of the lens....

Destiny..

[mediavets]

Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:57 am

Oh.. 10.5mm means either my 14mm is out or my 24mm is out.. My 14mm focal is 94mm from camera face plate to 0, which should be the entrance pupil of the lens....

Destiny..

I've no idea what you mean by camera face plate - a photo might help?

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:02 am

I really like this Pano Tour and the home.. Lots of space for my shoes and clothes.. Not sure where my husband would keep his stuff hahaha... What EVs and No. of shots did you use..

If you used the 14mm focal, did you use PTGui to stitch this pano.. or APG...

Destiny..

For interiors, I still use HDR. Less complicated and faster shooting than lighting a full room for a virtual tour. I don't do many of them anymore, I'm mostly nature and scenic work outside now. Here's an old one from a couple years ago, shot at 14mm on the Panoneed: http://www.aaronpriestphoto.com/pano/20 ... ala_Ranch/

My nodal slide measurement probably wouldn't help you much, as it differs from camera to camera and L plate to L plate. Even my D700 and D810 are slightly different. But, for what it's worth, I use Really Right Stuff L plates, MPR-192 rail, and at 14mm my camera is set to 2.5cm and the Panoneed clamp to 16.6cm with the D700 and no vertical grip.

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:08 am

This face plate... the flange, where the lens butts against.. Not matter who is using the D800, the distance from this flange or what ever its called, will be the same to the 0, centre of their tripod.. Its the only constant..

Destiny..

Oh.. 10.5mm means either my 14mm is out or my 24mm is out.. My 14mm focal is 94mm from camera face plate to 0, which should be the entrance pupil of the lens....

Destiny..

I've no idea what you mean by camera face plate - a photo might help?

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