BUG!... ??   [SOLVED] - View the solution

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:17 pm

Destiny wrote:I can put my camera at any orientation and save a pre set for sinle frame bracketed shots...
. . . I can set both images for my stills and panos at the same settings....


Yes, of course. But do you need to put the camera on the VR2 to use HDR - even if you do not shoot panos but stills?
Or can you use a head of your choice with the VR2´s HDR-option?

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:41 pm

I can take all the rails off and turn the VR Dive over and clap the top to the bottom onto of the tripod.. Then that leave a ¼ screw where I can put a stud into it and fix my Ball Head to it. Then move the camera anywhere and even put my 50-500mm Sigma on to it.. I now have heaps of HDR control, and a remote.. Since I have a Router where i can see the VR Drive controls.. Do not have to touch the camera.. I guess each to their own.. I do not do this since I like to keep my camera on the rails.. which I can slide out and turn the camera. If I wand to Land Scape photos. Then go to the Pre Set for Single shots with HDR set to the same as the Pano.. I also have a a little bit of ball movement in my leveller.. easy..

Destiny..

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:27 am

I understand the fact I my tripod might not be the best option but... When I put the first set of 5 images into Photoshop to check if the VR Drive moved during capture, I cannot see any moment at all. Particularly the amount APG suggests it out...

I really do not believe my tripod moved at all.. I believe that the issue is that APG does not aline my stacks correctly due to the fact that it will not allow me to use Hard Links on the mid range image. Even using the First image I will get miss alinement..

I still say there is something wrong with APG.. It does not handle the Anti Ghosting with Stacks... It miss alines stacked images. The LDR and HDR are .... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: =(

Far better to pre process the stacks.. But then I have stitching issues. Not had but not perfect... if I use XML it does not seem to work as well as I would suggest it should..

I guess it might all come down to the fact that my 14-24mm is not the most ideal lens to use for sphere... But I like to use it since the quality is sooo much better than using my 10.5mm Fisheye.. I doubt if the 16mm fisheye would equal the quality, besides I really do not want to buy a new lens since I need to pay off my new iMac...

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:05 am

Are we talking about ghosting within stacks or between stacks?

AFAIK APG never did handle ghosting within stacks, or am I mistaken?

If that's the case, the issue is whether APG can handle ghosting between stacks when using exposure fusion and stacks.

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:15 am

There is no ghosting of the images, so no ghosting between stacks.. All ghosting happens within stacks caused by poor alinement... In the options you have Fusion and Ghosting HDR.. I really do not know what Ghosting HDR does.. Why is there no Ghosting Fusion..??? Ghosting HDR does not seem to fix the issue anyway...

Seems to me that from beginning to end with Stacks to use LDR/HDR there are issues with APG... Its not as if I have not tried to use it.. I feel I have well and truly tried...

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:27 am

Destiny wrote:I believe that the issue is that APG does not aline my stacks correctly due to the fact that it will not allow me to use Hard Links on the mid range image. Even using the First image I will get miss alinement..
I still say there is something wrong with APG.. It does not handle the Anti Ghosting with Stacks... It miss alines stacked images. The LDR and HDR are .... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: =(


Again, Destiny: "hard-linking" means that APG doesn´t take into regard ALL layers in the stack but just ONE for searching CPs. This means the other layers do not necessarily match perfectly. APG doesn´t provide "ghost subpression" in the way Photomatix does it. That´s why i suggested somke time before in this thread to try to MOT use "hard-linking" but CP-detection in the stacks. Then ALL layers will be included in CP-search.
Check the documentation!!

Destiny wrote:Far better to pre process the stacks.. But then I have stitching issues. Not had but not perfect... if I use XML it does not seem to work as well as I would suggest it should..


Sorry - but that´s not to blame to APG . .

Destiny wrote:I guess it might all come down to the fact that my 14-24mm is not the most ideal lens to use for sphere... But I like to use it since the quality is sooo much better than using my 10.5mm Fisheye.. I doubt if the 16mm fisheye would equal the quality, besides I really do not want to buy a new lens since I need to pay off my new iMac...


Using the 10,5mm fisheye on D800 means you need to switch the D800 to DX. This means to reduce the effective sensor-size and that means to drastically reduce the resolution.

That´s very much different using the 16mm fisheye - which was designed for FX/KB. This lens is excellent! Definitely not comparable to the 10,5mm regarding the optical quality - and you use the FULL sensor-features of your D800.

The 16mm FE´s achievable image-quality you wouldn´t see a difference to the image-quality which the 14-24 provides @14mm with spheres.

But after all i suggest - as i always do - to process the bracketed images prior to the stitching.

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:36 am

Destiny wrote:Seems to me that from beginning to end with Stacks to use LDR/HDR there are issues with APG...


Destiny, among all users of APG and Photomatix who i know - and i know a lot of people using this combination - you
definitely are the only one having this kind of issues you described.

I now will pull out of this thread now - all relevant points are said.

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:23 am

Yes Andrew...This is the issue... I am not so sure it does...

Destiny..

mediavets wrote:.... the issue is whether APG can handle ghosting between stacks when using exposure fusion and stacks.

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Re: BUG!... ??

by marzipano » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:31 pm

Destiny wrote:There is no ghosting of the images, so no ghosting between stacks.. All ghosting happens within stacks caused by poor alinement... In the options you have Fusion and Ghosting HDR.. I really do not know what Ghosting HDR does.. Why is there no Ghosting Fusion..??? Ghosting HDR does not seem to fix the issue anyway...

Seems to me that from beginning to end with Stacks to use LDR/HDR there are issues with APG... Its not as if I have not tried to use it.. I feel I have well and truly tried...

Destiny...


AFAIK the HDR Ghosts option is meant to be the equivalent of anti-ghosting across overlaps but applied within a stack. If you get a bracketed set with some movement (e.g people walking) and look at the preview image on the screen whilst clicking the HDR check box on and off, you can see it trying to do something but nowhere near enough to resolve the movement inside the stacked image set

Also as far as I could see, "traditional" anti-ghosting in the overlap area with or without masking works fine even for adjacent bracketed sets

Back on my favourite subject of ducks swimming around a lake, I have the results of a panorama containing groups of 5 stacked images x 4 horizontally done in both APG fusion+stitching and Photomatix fusion followed by APG stitching where the difference in output is plain to see

If anyone else wants to try and get a results (including duck images) using APG fusion, my images are here. You will need to set "use stacks of 5 images" rather than "use bracketed sets" as these were taken using CHDK and the images not flagged as bracketed

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jhtoaxuz7tliml8/AAAUmcoBOlzHIbe62MAV5ChXa?dl=0

Martin
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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:25 pm

Hi Martin.. Yes I remember those famous ducks.. In your case using Photomatix is the way to go.. But in my case, whilst pre-fusion is also the way to go too, movement of features in my images is not the issue, since there is none.. It seems that APG does not use Hard Links at all well.. assuming that Hard Links keeps the stakes in neat stacks.. If it did, then there would be no ghosting.. The ghosting in my case has been caused by APG.. I cannot use the middle reference image which is what I would normally do, I have to due images outside of that which kind of work as in it doe not result in a blob, but it still creates double images, or ghosting... Its not really ghosting... Its double imaging.. Ghosting is really when you have moment.. My issue is due to the images not begin stacked a neat stack..

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:53 am

To me, APG has been designed wrong from very the beginning with the Fusion and HDR features.. In my view the stacks should be processed during Detect but ONLY Fused and NOT stitched. Then in Edit choose ONE of the single Fused sets to edit the Fusion or HDR to your liking. This will be heaps and heaps quicker to achieve a result since you are only using part of the pano. You should be able to choose ANY single Fused set to edit the Fusion. When you tick yes, ALL of the other remaining Fused Stacks adopt that same setting automatically..

Then select ALL from the right side, drag them under the original images, and then press Detect, but this time it stitches the images. Now you have a process very similar to adding pre fused images from Photomatix, but entirely processed in APG..

Destiny..

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:18 am

I have been checking out Heavy Duty or HEAVY tripods for a while and most are very expensive.. I found this one on B&H on sales which seems to fit my needs.. and its a lot cheaper... Normal price of $380, but on sale for $134 saving about $245...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/7 ... ction.html

Watch the video.. It comes with big snow feet so it should be very firm on the ground and never move. The Aus $ is not the best and I will need to pay postage... But still cheaper than most at this level in Australia..

What you do you think about the Vanguard Auctus Plus 283AT 3-Section Aluminum Tripod..????

Destiny...


klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:I really do believe there is a missing option with Stacks and Fusion. It does not remove ghosting..


Depending on whats the reason for the ghosting. As said: "hard linking" sets CPs in ONE layer only - and uses this CPs for all the rest also,
And that´s really clever! BUT: if anything moves BETWEEN you shoot the different exposures - caused by wind or tripod-shaking or so - THIS moving object CANNOT match the already found CPs in the basic layer. Result: ghosts.

Destiny wrote:What would be the best Tripod to buy??. I still have my birthday money which I was wanting to buy a Pole and WiFi memory card with.. but.. perhaps a heavy tripod would be a better option....


I strongly suggest to use a HEAVY one for shooting bracketed panos. Usually these tripods a very expensive.
But you can find those tripods on ebay for acceptable costs. A good choice is Gitzo No. 4 or 5 Aluminium or Steel.

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_sop=7&_n ... num&_frs=1
or Manfrotto TRIAUT:
http://www.manfrotto.de/product/0/058B/ ... t,_schwarz

For shooting panos i prefer a Gitzo Systematic No. 5 with center-column and a Manfrotto TRIAUT.

Gitzo5 Alu/steel + Alpa Monoball + PhaseOne
Gitz5.jpg


Gitzo5 Carbon
Gitz5_3.jpg


Gitzo5 Alu/steel + Alpa Monoball + Panoneed head +D800
Gitz5_2.JPG


Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Lounas » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:22 am

Hi I try in v. 4.2.0 process 3 photos (spherical photo, top foto and tripod removing picture - floor). Pictures having same key points. But Autopano can't process them. Maybe my raport is not bug and it's mistake on my own. You choose.

PS: Sorry for my English.

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Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:39 am

Lounas wrote:Hi I try in v. 4.2.0 process 3 photos (spherical photo, top foto and tripod removing picture - floor). Pictures having same key points. But Autopano can't process them. Maybe my raport is not bug and it's mistake on my own. You choose.

PS: Sorry for my English.

Welcome to the forum...

May I suggest you delete your post and start a new topic for your problem.

It sounds as if you are trying to add a zenith and nadir shot to a pano you have stitched previously?

If that's the case APP/APG cannot do that.

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Re: BUG!... ??

by aserban24 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:35 am

Destiny wrote:Hi...

Should I call this a bug or a fact that APG cannot process my images.??? I tried to added my Stacks in the hope that using my new iMac APG could coup with my images.. I have said in another post that RMS means nothing.. This is true.. How can this be "Excellent".. when its clear its not.. Millions of issues.. I went to Edit and clicked on the Fusion and I am still waiting after an hour for it to go into the Green.. Wouldn't matter anyway since you can see so much Ghosting... :rolleyes:

APG cannot process my images using Stacks.. Using preprocessed fused images it can do it, but still has some issues.. I cannot use Hard Links since it will make a dogs dinner of my pano, detecting it as a Blob.. I also cannot sue XML code to assist.. No idea why...

It could be argued that my NPP or other settings are out.. But, how come PTGui outputs the pano just about perfectly.. No issues... I really do not get APG.. I never have.. For some reason APG does not like my 14-24mm lens with images shot at 14mm focal...

Destiny...


Destiny, it sounds to me like you don't really know how to use Autopano. All of the issues you complain about are easily remedied with proper usage of the software.

Go through all the documentation and the tutorials, experience some trial and error (seems you have had a lot of this already), and you will get the same pleasing results that the tens of thousands of other APG users like myself have yielded.

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:18 am

aserban24, you seem to have failed to read this post correctly, and then made judgement on your failure to understand the issue.

This post was about using the 14-24mm lens at 14mm focal.. Many things came out of this post. I have now purchased a heavy tripod as Klaus suggested might be the issue. I will capture some new images to test this. Many issues here have gone unanswered, so issues still remain. Such as why Hard Links seem to be an issue with this lens, and whether Anti Ghosting is supported by bracketed shots in APG. We still do not have that answer. Why is it that I cannot use the middle stack image as the reference for processing stacks, and why is it that when using a 14-24mm APG make the stitching worse when using the XML.. Do you have these answers. I am guessing no since you have not provided any..

Question for you.. Have you actually used a 14-24mm at 14mm focal so you are able to make a judgment call on stitching the images in APG as Stacks of bracketed shots..?? There are many lenses that have no issues with APG, including most primes, the 35mm and 50mm and 80mm.. Fisheye lenses can have issues since they do not have a fixed focal so the NPP can very.. Ultra wide rectilinear lenses usually exhibit complex distortions and the 14-24mm is the extreme of this... Using the 14-24mm at 24mm focal seems to have fewer issues, but that requires shooting twice the number of images. I would like to find out why the 14-24mm has issues at 14mm focal.. It could be as simple as changing the shooting pattern, which is on my list to test..

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Panoram1x » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:42 pm

If anyone else wants to try and get a results (including duck images) using APG fusion, my images are here. You will need to set "use stacks of 5 images" rather than "use bracketed sets" as these were taken using CHDK and the images not flagged as bracketed

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jhtoaxuz7tli ... 5ChXa?dl=0

Martin


Hi

Yes, I know it's an old issue, but this summer I had time to play with the photos and this is what I get from your images using APG, Photomatix and a little bit of Photoshop
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Re: BUG!... ??

by marzipano » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:03 pm

That's come out very nicely !

I see, though, that you used Photomatix (as I do myself) to do the fusing so I presume you also couldn't get APG fusion to resolve the ghosting within the bracketed sets

best
Martin

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Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:51 pm

marzipano wrote:That's come out very nicely !

I see, though, that you used Photomatix (as I do myself) to do the fusing so I presume you also couldn't get APG fusion to resolve the ghosting within the bracketed sets

best
Martin


I don't think APG offers antighosting within stacks.

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Re: BUG!... ??

by marzipano » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:55 pm

mediavets wrote:
marzipano wrote:That's come out very nicely !

I see, though, that you used Photomatix (as I do myself) to do the fusing so I presume you also couldn't get APG fusion to resolve the ghosting within the bracketed sets

best
Martin


I don't think APG offers antighosting within stacks.


That was my (and I think Destiny's) point - HDR fusion /stack processing is one of the main differentiators between APP and APG and yet it has never been properly implemented by Kolor (or responded to on here)

Martin

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:25 am

Hi Martin.... And to add to the confusion, APG and APP are not commented on by Kolor anymore... PTP and APV are very well suppored on this forum...

Anti Ghost with Stacks seems to be suppored by PTGui very well, but not APG...Not good enough to be honest..... Hard Links should fix this Iissue but does not seem to be the case with the 14-24mm lens...

Destiny...

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Panoram1x » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:39 am

I absolutely agree that APG does not make a good job of eliminating ghosts within the stacks (in fact I think that no work)

In Photomatix the result is not always perfect, but in this aspect is the best software that I could try so far.


Photomatix-AutopanoV.jpg


Some time ago I showed in this forum this comparison that shows the difference in this respect between the results of Autopano and Photomatix.

I think Autopano should improve (I can say add?) the option to remove the ghosts within the stacks.

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Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:57 am

Processing using a third party software application is really the only option. The Fusion/HDR option in APG for me has so many issues from the rendered final quality and as you say, the anti-ghosting.. I have no idea which normal lenses can successfully be used with APG but one thing is for certain, the 14-24mm has issues, APG does not know how to handle it.. Much better to use pre-processed stacked images.. Forget the Fusion/HDR option with APG.. If I add my images into PTGui, I can achieve a HDR/LDR output without any ghosting issues at all. If I add my pre-processed images into PGTui, I get no issues at all, beautiful results.. This screen shot is the anti-ghosting results from using 5 stacks with APG... This suggest that APG does not handle anti-ghosting with stacks at all well.. and with my 14-24mm it will not handle Hard Links either, which by rights should fix the ghosting issues.. I created another post suggesting that RMS means nothing. I stand by that statement. Since with the terrible results from APG, the RMS are still around 2.7 or lower.. Using a 35mm or 50mm I can achieve excellent results using XML with APG.. Using XML in APG with my 14-24mm images, has the opposite results.. It makes it worse...

Destiny..
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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:20 am

Panoram1x wrote:Some time ago I showed in this forum this comparison that shows the difference in this respect between the results of Autopano and Photomatix.


Well - APG is a STITCHER first hand. It´s NOT a HDR-processor, it´s NOT a RAW-processor - and it´s NOT an Espresso-machine . . or whatever you´d like it to be . . ;) :cool:

It´s "just" a stitcher - and it´s an excellent one.

That´s why i´m sugesting for years and years to use a dedicated HDR-processor and also a dedicated RAW-processor prior to stitching.

HDR-processing/Tonemapping as well as RAW-processing is VERY "special" - let specialized software handle it if you want good results.

Btw.: i ran several tests importing bracketed sets into APG, stitch them and export them as .hdr or .exr - worked fine!

But fusioning in APG in my eyes is not reliable enough for achieving constantly the results which you expect - too much
try-and-error, too time-consuming.

Klaus

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Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:38 am

Destiny wrote:Processing using a third party software application is really the only option. The Fusion/HDR option in APG for me has so many issues from the rendered final quality and as you say, the anti-ghosting.. I have no idea which normal lenses can successfully be used with APG but one thing is for certain, the 14-24mm has issues, APG does not know how to handle it.. Much better to use pre-processed stacked images.. Forget the Fusion/HDR option with APG.. If I add my images into PTGui, I can achieve a HDR/LDR output without any ghosting issues at all. If I add my pre-processed images into PGTui, I get no issues at all, beautiful results.. This screen shot is the anti-ghosting results from using 5 stacks with APG... This suggest that APG does not handle anti-ghosting with stacks at all well.. and with my 14-24mm it will not handle Hard Links either, which by rights should fix the ghosting issues.. I created another post suggesting that RMS means nothing. I stand by that statement. Since with the terrible results from APG, the RMS are still around 2.7 or lower.. Using a 35mm or 50mm I can achieve excellent results using XML with APG.. Using XML in APG with my 14-24mm images, has the opposite results.. It makes it worse...

Destiny..


Dsetiny - did you ever try to un-distort the 14-24mm´s images in LR or so before importing them into APG?

I guess it´s the somewhat "special" behavior of the lens @14mm which makes it hard for APG to deal with it.

It´s known for years that this lens isn´t ideal for shooting spheres - but it looks soo cool . . ;) :cool:

But to be honest: Aaron Priest uses the lens for quite a time now on the Panoneed head - using the head´s xml.
No issues.

best, Klaus

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