BUG!... ?? [SOLVED] - View the solution

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:16 pm

Where.. I cannot get this option to show.. Only get N_0 to N_4....

How did you get the shutter speed....

"T" for TIME . . .

Klaus

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:17 pm

Clearly there is something not right with APG..

Really? Well - i´m not so sure . .

Klaus

[mediavets]

Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:22 pm

I will have to continue with this in the morning.. Getting late down under...

Thank you for all your testing guys. Clearly there is something not right with APG.. I have found it tends to remember stuff which causes issues.. Like having its own little Cache..

Destiny...

Yes, I think it does.

Perhaps that's why I managed to get results using all 5 possible levels as reference levels (only) IF I closed and restarted APG and reloaded the images each time.

Andrew

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:14 pm

Before I was using XML, using Stacks I always had issues with detection.. Perhaps I should have been trying deferent registration images. Its not just my 14-24mm I have had issues with, same with my 10.5 fisheye.. I real do feel there is glitch here somewhere.

Not sure what grouping my stacks into Time or Shutter Speed might achieve with rendering but I am doing it now.. I always thought that those were just user preferences on how to recognise groups.. I did not think that they influenced the stitching or rendering in anyway... I can see it being very handy for turning off a full set of EVs to see what the entire panos looks like with or without it when Fusion or HDR is ticked. But as for influencing the final render..??????? Only if you turned on set off..

Destiny..

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:49 am

Well Klaus, I learnt something from all that.. but not so sure its the right way of doing it.. I never thought that the stitching would improve by using that Registration image, to me it does not make sense.. No stitching issues but some double ghosting through the centre of big bunch of flowers down to the price tag and the black horse. Probably other areas too.. I would have thought that APG could fix that.. Not so sure I like the Fusion effect from APG. Never have liked it.. But.. at least it does work and I managed to get the look I like using Photoshop..

APG takes far too long to render my images when using Stacks. Far too hit and miss with the Fusion settings.. In fact that process is simply horrible.

The question is... Is all this a Bug..?? with a work-around..

Now I just need to use my PreFused Images in APG and get the same stitching quality and then I will be happy..

As it is, I have stitching errors but no double ghosting.... So can you guys use EnfuseGUI all defaults with my medium sized images and tell me what settings are best to use with my images..

Destiny..

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:15 am

I really do believe there is a missing option with Stacks and Fusion. It does not remove ghosting.. If I add my pre-fused images and zoom into an area of concern, then press Preview, you can see the double imaging being removed, but that is not the case with stacked images. The double imaging remains into the rendering. I can see moment in my images in part when I flick between slices in Edit. The question is; Is it my NPP out or movement of my tripod moving.. Perhaps some long term issues I have had comes down to my tripod moving.. It is very light..

What would be the best Tripod to buy??. I still have my birthday money which I was wanting to buy a Pole and WiFi memory card with.. but.. perhaps a heavy tripod would be a better option....

I have just added another pano pre-fused set into APG and one half of the pano as no moments between slices but the other half does.. I think you are right about my tripod being an issue Klaus. If my NPP was out then I should get moment across the entire panos. Not just random parts of it..

APG does a very good job of removing double imaging but only when adding pre-fused images. It fails to remove it with stacks. Unless I am doing something wrong...

Destiny...

[marzipano]

Re: BUG!... ??

by marzipano » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:26 am

I really do believe there is a missing option with Stacks and Fusion. It does not remove ghosting.. If I add my pre-fused images and zoom into an area of concern, then press Preview, you can see the double imaging being removed, but that is not the case with stacked images. The double imaging remains into the rendering. I can see moment in my images in part when I flick between slices in Edit. The question is; Is it my NPP out or movement of my tripod moving.. Perhaps some long term issues I have had comes down to my tripod moving.. It is very light..

What would be the best Tripod to buy??. I still have my birthday money which I was wanting to buy a Pole and WiFi memory card with.. but.. perhaps a heavy tripod would be a better option....

I have just added another pano pre-fused set into APG and one half of the pano as no moments between slices but the other half does.. I think you are right about my tripod being an issue Klaus. If my NPP was out then I should get moment across the entire panos. Not just random parts of it..

APG does a very good job of removing double imaging but only when adding pre-fused images. It fails to remove it with stacks. Unless I am doing something wrong...

Destiny...

I had always assumed that was what the "HDR" option in the editor was meant to do (but doesn't !) and why you needed to turn that on and off when you had already selected "fusion" was a mystery

We had a similar thread a couple of years ago on APG hdr/stack processing and came to the same conclusion as in this thread - it doesn't work for alignment and anti-ghosting within a bracketed set (stack) !

As an aside this is page 5 of this discussion and no input from Kolor on the subject. As in the "dog that didn't bark" , I suspect they already know it doesn't work but won't comment

Martin

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:11 am

Yes Martin.. It doesn't seem to work at all.. I have tried ticking Fusion, Fusion + HDR Ghost and only HDR Ghost.. Makes no difference at all.. If I pre-fuse my images its fine, no ghosting.. I am assuming my ghosting is due to tripod movement or... the fact that APG cannot use Hard Links with my images..

If I were Kolor, I would strip the LDR and HDR out of APG altogether and start from scratch.. Its simply horrible to use.. Is what I would call a feature of limited use... used by a limited number of people.. Far better to pre-fuse/hdr.. To me.. sorry Kolor, but APG in many ways is behind the 8ball with PTGui in many ways.. V4 is heaps better than any other version but then along come PTGui and release a new version that work even better... Here is a snap shot from PTGui.. Using Xml, no problems, no ghosting no issues.. emmmmm.. So many straight lines on the ceiling with wooden ships so the Antique Centre is good location to test stitching issues.. I cannot see any using PTGui..

I have attached two images.. Which one is APG and which one is PTGui....

Destiny..

Attachments

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:07 pm

Probably other areas too.. I would have thought that APG could fix that..

Destiny: just give it a deeper thought!
You chose "hard linking". That means the stitcher looks for CPs in ONE image-layer and use it´s CPs for the rest ofthe layers also.
When - most likely happens - there is ANY object moving in the images on the other layers the CPs for this object CANNOT match! So you get ghosts on this obejkt.

Had you NOT chosen "hard linking" but "look for CPs" (or so) the CP-detection would have worked on EACH of the five image-layers. This takes definitely longer - but could handle moving parts in the bracketed sets.

This is another advantage of processing brackets PRIOR to stitching: Photoamtix features a good working automatic ghost-suppression - and an EXCELLENT working manual ghost-suppression - both handle moves between the five exposures in the same image.

Think about what bracketing means at all! It means you shoot five(in your case) times the VERY SAME image - in ANYTHING in the motive
moves while you shoot the five exposures: you necessarily get ghosts in the final image . . . if you do NOT use an effectively working ghost-subpression.

As it is, I have stitching errors but no double ghosting.... So can you guys use EnfuseGUI all defaults with my medium sized images and tell me what settings are best to use with my images..

Destiny - i strongly suggest to find out the optimal settings yourself! This is the only way to LEARN what it´s all about!

As long as you let others do the findings you´ll never achieve the insight you need to use this things successfully, sorry.

Klaus

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:31 pm

I thought that was the object of sharing images... To learn from other users insights and knowledge..

Its ok.. I will tinker with it... I am sure in time I will work it out...

Destiny...

As long as you let others do the findings you´ll never achieve the insight you need to use this things successfully, sorry.

Klaus

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:45 pm

I really do believe there is a missing option with Stacks and Fusion. It does not remove ghosting..

Depending on whats the reason for the ghosting. As said: "hard linking" sets CPs in ONE layer only - and uses this CPs for all the rest also,
And that´s really clever! BUT: if anything moves BETWEEN you shoot the different exposures - caused by wind or tripod-shaking or so - THIS moving object CANNOT match the already found CPs in the basic layer. Result: ghosts.

What would be the best Tripod to buy??. I still have my birthday money which I was wanting to buy a Pole and WiFi memory card with.. but.. perhaps a heavy tripod would be a better option....

I strongly suggest to use a HEAVY one for shooting bracketed panos. Usually these tripods a very expensive.
But you can find those tripods on ebay for acceptable costs. A good choice is Gitzo No. 4 or 5 Aluminium or Steel.

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_sop=7&_n ... num&_frs=1
or Manfrotto TRIAUT:
http://www.manfrotto.de/product/0/058B/ ... t,_schwarz

For shooting panos i prefer a Gitzo Systematic No. 5 with center-column and a Manfrotto TRIAUT.

Gitzo5 Alu/steel + Alpa Monoball + PhaseOne

Gitzo5 Carbon

Gitzo5 Alu/steel + Alpa Monoball + Panoneed head +D800

Klaus

[mediavets]

Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:30 pm

Had you NOT chosen "hard linking" but "look for CPs" (or so) the CP-detection would have worked on EACH of the five image-layers. This takes definitely longer - but could handle moving parts in the bracketed sets.

I 'get' the theory, however in the real world I've never got good results doing that, have you?

.........

If APG cannot handle anti-ghost both within and between stacks with exposure fusion, then it seems third party processing is a better option.

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:35 pm

Thank you for those links.. I like the Gitzo but I really want flat feet.. I am sure that my rounded feet can cause some issues.. I have seen my tripod spring out its legs just a little bit during shooting on tiles.. but not so sure in the case of my Antique Centre shoot.. I did not see it move..

Destiny...

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:12 pm

If APG cannot handle anti-ghost both within and between stacks with exposure fusion, then it seems third party processing is a better option

I wouldn´t state that APG can not handle it - it depends on how you use APG.
When you with stacks don´t use "hard linking" but "find CPs" APG might be able to compensate ghosts by setting the CPs in one image featuring moves differently so that you do NOT have ghosts in the end.


I tested it this way - and it worked fine. But that doesn´t mean it works ALWAYS: it´s unprecitable. I prefer featutres i can count on. Always.

I mean it´s definitely preferable to process brackets first using a dedicated app like Photomatix - featuring an excellent ghost-corection, which exceeds the capability of APG regarding ghosting caused by movements.

Aside from compensating ghosts/moves the handling of the settings in Photomatix in my eyes is much preferable and more reliable than the "fusion tool" in APG (and by far more hardware-friendly).

Klaus

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:20 pm

Thank you for those links.. I like the Gitzo but I really want flat feet.. I am sure that my rounded feet can cause some issues.. I have seen my tripod spring out its legs just a little bit during shooting on tiles..

They´re the "universal" rubber feet. You can change them to flat rubber feets, there are "spiders" (spreaders) to absolutely fix the legs. Used by film-/movie cameramen: http://www.proaimshop.com/New_Images/Tr ... ader-1.jpg
http://www.millertripods.com/product-ty ... aders-feet
VERY effective!
But i adjusted the legs on my No. 5 in a way they NEVER move away on slippery ground. Not a single millimeter!

but not so sure in the case of my Antique Centre shoot.. I did not see it move..

You wouldn´t see that kind of moving. That´s part of the problem.

Klaus

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:53 pm

OK Klaus, I now know the tripod to buy... I just need to find a nice second hand one.. No real rush.. There are a lot of control options to slow moments but I guess that is not adequate enough for a very light tripod like mine..

I will look out for flat rubber feet too.. I do not think I need the spreader.. I have seen them during my search..

All very expensive gear..

Destiny...

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:19 am

There seems to be so many Series 5 Gitzo tripods. Some have two kinds of feet.. Round rubber which can be removed to show spikes.. But I would like flat feet.. This one would need the centre column too...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... MATIC.html

I need to find the new price so I know if a good deal with a second hand one.. I really do not want lots to leg sections since they tend to get quite thin when there are too many sections. I also need to find one in Australia since shipping would be very expensive.

There is the Series 3, is this not any good..

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... MATIC.html

The total weight of my gear is around 4.7kg.. So 5kg max..

Destiny...

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:50 pm

There is the Series 3, is this not any good..

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... MATIC.html

The total weight of my gear is around 4.7kg.. So 5kg max..

Definitely much better than your current one.

The LOAD is not a problem - vibrations and very small movement are the point.
You wouldn´t recognize this kind of motions while you shoot - but you´ll definitely see it afterwards . .

So let the head first come to a rest after it stopped moving!

Regarding the D800´s fullframe-sensor and it´s resolution of 36MPx even mirror-shaking most likely causes blur even with 1/60 or 1/125sec using more than 35 mm lenses when you examine an image @100%.

If vibrations/moving occures between brackets most likely result in ghosts. I guess that was the case in your pano from rhe antique shop - only a guess, but a very typical issue and not related to the stitcher.

So the vital rules:

1) a VERY sturdy tripod.
2) a VERY sturdy head.
3) ALWAYS use mirror-lock for each exposure.
4) shooting a sphere and shooting bracketed sequences i strongly suggest to shoot in liveView-mode!
This way the mirror stayes locked the whole time until the sphere is completed.
5) because the D800 sucks power like hell i suggest to use the battery-grip "MB_D12" and put in the big "EN-EL18" accu from the Nikon D4. This one has x-times the capacity of the D800´s standard "EN-EL15" and works perfectly in the D800´s MB_D12.

On my controller i can activate a sensor inside the Panoneed head which senses any kind of vibration/movement - and only fires the camera if it´s completely motion-free. Ask Seitz to add such a sensor to the VR2 also - it´s a very clever thing when you shoot bracketed spheres of somewhat higher resolution especially when you shoot outdoors in a windy situation.

The very best lens in the universe wouldn´t help you a sh . . as long as your whole setup isn´t ABSOLUTELY free of ANY kind of vibration resp. moving.

Shooting with a fisheye and using rather low resolution this isn´t much of an issue - but shooting hires . . the world changes VERY quickly . . .

klaus

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:01 am

I did not know that in Live View the Mirror locks.... Why... I do know that the shutter is a lot slower in Live View...

I cannot leave my camera with Live View when my VR Drive has the HDR cable attached... As soon as I atteach the cable Live View shuts off... Not sure if I can over ride it...

Destiny...

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:20 pm

I did not know that in Live View the Mirror locks.... Why... I do know that the shutter is a lot slower in Live View...

Of course the mirror NEEDS to be locked to have a LiveView . . .

The shutter isn´t "slower in LiveView" at all - but releasing works a little bit slower.
That doesn´t affect the exposures at all - and only is the case shooting ONE image at a time. Shooting a long series it´s much different.

Shooting bracketing sequences in normal mode means to have mirror-shake on EACH release. If you didn´t set a wait-time long enough between the releases you´ll most likely get vibrations.

Believe me: it´s much preferable shooting bracketing sequences and spheres - or the combination of both - using the LiveView mode.

Starting the shoot the mirror gets up ONCE and stays there utill ALL brackets and ALL sphere-images are done - THEN the mirror comes down again.

Because the mirror-lock happens electrical it sucks power to keep it up for let´s say 13x5 shots. This and the activated display for the time of shooting leads to the need of a more powerful battery than the small EL15 inside the camera:
the EL18 from the Nikon D4.

There are many clones which cost a fraction of the original accu. A new charger is also needed.

I cannot leave my camera with Live View when my VR Drive has the HDR cable attached... As soon as I atteach the cable Live View shuts off... Not sure if I can over ride it...

That´s not a really clever solution at all, Destiny . . .

Use the internal bracketing features - you wouldn´t need the VRdrive at all for shooting bracketed.
Using the camera´s internal bracketing features you can take the standard shutter-release cable - hope the VR2
provides a 3,5mm jack . . .

The camera´s 5 bracketing-steps @1EV work very good. If you have more extreme light-situations you can take 7 or 9-steps.

Klaus

[mediavets]

Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:33 pm

Klaus,

I have neither, but I have read that D800 mirror lock up capabilities are as not as good as those on high end Canons.

Are you talking of the D800 or a Canon body?

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:09 pm

Klaus,

I have neither, but I have read that D800 mirror lock up capabilities are as not as good as those on high end Canons.

Are you talking of the D800 or a Canon body?

Destiny uses a D800. So do i. The D800´s mirror-lock capabilties are just different from Canon´s.
The D800 "internally" provides up to 9 steps bracketing @1EV. That´s enough steps in most situations.
My Canon 5D2 provided (i sold it meanwhile) max. 3 steps @2EV. This has different effects - but i wouldn´t name it
"not as good".

I bought the PromoteControl three years ago for the Canon 5D2 - and use it with the D800 now, if it´s (very rarely) needed.

What i mean is really GREAT: qDSLRDashboard. A free software for Win/Lin/Mac/Android/iOS desktops, laptops and tablets/phones.
On the D800 it takes over the whole features of my D800 and let me control them featuring also LiveView on the tablet!
This all works via a small WLAN-router - which costs around 75.-€ here - an connects to the D800 via USB3.

Does the same as "CamRanger" - but CamRanger costs about 350.-€ - qDSLRDashboard is free and you just need to invest 75.-€ for the wireless-router.

LiveView on the tablet is gorgeous!! You can have the camera on a high stand and view on the tablet what the camera sees and you can set ALL settings remotely. Fully support for most DSLRs - ideal for controlling a D800/810.

It´s a good alternative to the PromoteControl - which costs around 300.-€.

Klaus

[mediavets]

Re: BUG!... ??

by mediavets » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:38 pm

I have a Promote Control and the qDSLRdashboard (running on Nexus 7 Android tablet) with WiFi router device; both work fine with my D5100. But the D5100 doesn't offer the mirror lock up features of the D800 so I don't know whether they would work with that feature of the D800.

But I can understand why Destiny finds the notion of the 'built-in' exposure bracketing control of the VRDDrive 2 attractive.

[klausesser]

Re: BUG!... ??

by klausesser » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:00 pm

I have a Promote Control and the qDSLRdashboard (running on Nexus 7 Android tablet) with WiFi router device; both work fine with my D5100. But the D5100 doesn't offer the mirror lock up features of the D800 so I don't know whether they would work with that feature of the D800.

When you use the LiveView the mirror is locked up.

But I can understand why Destiny finds the notion of the 'built-in' exposure bracketing control of the VRDDrive 2 attractive.

Really? Well . . . matter of taste i guess. I mean it´s rather cumbersome having it inside the head´s controller - which is
fixed to the head . .
So each time she wants to shoot bracketed she needs to use the VR2 - even when she does not shoot a sphere/pano at all .

Would you name THAT clever?? I don´t think this is clever. Regarding the costs for the option: it´s more expensive than a PromoteControl . . .

Klaus

PS: set the camera to bracketing and to "serial shooting". Start the LiveView and hold the button on your remote-cable pressed as long as the series takes. After the series ist finished the LiveView ends and the mirror comes down.

[Destiny]

Re: BUG!... ??

by Destiny » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:14 pm

I would suggest that it was very clever... If you already owned a VR Drive... I can put my camera at any orientation and save a pre set for sinle frame bracketed shots... I think it works really well... I can set both images for my stills and panos at the same settings....

Destiny