Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7  

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by mediavets » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:13 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:Meanwhile, as it seems my 5 images are a challenge and a benchmark for stitching programs, I have downloaded the trial version of Panorama Factory 2.6.5. It's quite a rustic program, far less sophisticated than APG, but it also does multi-row stitching and is quite fast. It's apparently from a dutch guy.

In my opinion that's the best result so far, because the sky blending is better than the others (APG and PhotoMerge) which both show a yellow cast on either the 3rd or 4th image. The sky produced by Panorama Factory is full blue and the transitions are smooth from left to right. The ruins are not bad at all, with good blendings, even if somewhat "over-exposed".

Olivier


I have used Panorama Factory in the past.

It's fine for single row partial panos but the method for handling multi-row is very clunky.

The program hasn't been updated for years, but I agree that the sky blending with your challenging image set looks quite good.

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Destiny » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:35 am

Panorama Factory was my fist ever software, I have 5.3 Mac... Its ok but you need to make sure your shooting pattern is correct otherwise it will be inside out.. Also, it does not stitch fisheye images... It does process bracketed shots either.. Support is next to zero... APG is far more sophisticated and the support is excellent.. Its just a matter of finding the settings that meet your image needs.. I had many issues with stitching until Lionel showed me a way that met my needs...

If you decide to chuck coloured washing in with the whites, you cannot complain that the washing machine is not working correctly.. You need to do some editing of the clothes to separate the coloureds... ;)

Destiny..

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Destiny » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:36 am

BTW... Can you make your full size images available for testing..

Destiny..

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by klausesser » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:00 pm

marzipano wrote:All pretty basic tuning and based on just re-examining the result in preview mode and fiddling around
anchors and gamma.jpg


best resuIt, definiteIy!

Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by klausesser » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:02 pm

Destiny wrote:If you decide to chuck coloured washing in with the whites, you cannot complain that the washing machine is not working correctly.. You need to do some editing of the clothes to separate the coloureds... ;)


I fully agree! Seeing Martin´s result shows well equalized tone-values, no whashed-out parts. That´s how it needs to be.

Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by klausesser » Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:46 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:However, I have observed that APG, while becoming more and more sophisticated, seems to be more and more demanding regarding the quality of the source images.


The only real shortcoming of APG is the lack of a profound documentation. The existing documentation has very big gaps on the one side and on the other side for understanding it it demands knowledge which no beginner can have without an understandable and profound documentation.

I´d call it "circle of confusion". =D :cool: The help you can get needs to come from members of this forum first hand.
Usually that works fine - as you see.

Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Marmotte06 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:21 pm

Destiny wrote:BTW... Can you make your full size images available for testing..
Destiny..


Yes, I have uploaded them on my Orange cloud account. Send me a private mail with your email and I will share.

Olivier

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Marmotte06 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:27 pm

klausesser wrote:I fully agree! Seeing Martin´s result shows well equalized tone-values, no whashed-out parts. That´s how it needs to be.
Klaus


I am afraid I do not agree... Look closely at martin's result, and you will see that the left half of the pano he obtained is awfully yellow tainted, and that yellow taint did not exist at all in the source image... Neither the pano produced by Photomerge nor the one produced by Panorama Factory have such a yellow cast.

Olivier

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Marmotte06 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:36 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:Meanwhile, as it seems my 5 images are a challenge and a benchmark for stitching programs, I have downloaded the trial version of Panorama Factory 2.6.5.

Note: I have uploaded the 5 images on my Orange cloud account. If Kolor or others want to have them to test, send me a private message with an e-mail address and I will share.

Olivier

My next try was the trial version of PtGUI 10.0.9, here is the result, again with all defaut settings:
PtGUI 10.0.9.jpg
PtGUI 10.0.9

The least I can say is that it's not brilliant... Let's say it's on par with APG 3.7.

So for the moment I have the following ranking:
1 - Panorama Studio
2 - Adobe PhotoMerge
3 - APG and PtGUI

I need to find more programs (with a trial version) to test, would you have any to recommend ?

Olivier

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Marmotte06 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:21 pm

I continue my quest... Here is the result with ArcSoft Panorama Maker v6, trial version, full auto:
Panorama Maker 6.jpg
Panorama Maker v6


Quite good. However there is this yellow cast in the sky of the 2nd and 4th image. The picture is very similar to the one produced by Photomerge, with a little less yellow, and therefore I find it slightly better. BTW, this PanoramaMaker program is extremely fast, certainly the fastest of all. I though it had only produced a preview, but that was all, the panorama was done. Even though the program seems to be only 32 bits.

So my current ranking is now:
1 - Panorama Studio
2 - Arcsoft Panorama Maker
3 - Adobe PhotoMerge
4 - APG and PtGUI

Tomorrow I won't be able to test new programs, because I will be travelling for business. The next one I have downloaded is "Easypano Panoweaver v9"...

Olivier

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Destiny » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:15 pm

In my opinion, if a subject is worth capturing, then its worth spending a little time setting the WB in order to capture the photos correctly in order to give the software a fighting chance to stitch correctly. I think in all honestly, rather than spend time with images that have not been captured correctly and testing software which might fix your shooting errors, I would practice with the features of the camera to avoid this situation again.. Quality is much better than quantity.. I would again suggest you use a camera that can shoot RAW since if you do not have the correct WB settings, you will be able to fix it..

Destiny...

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Marmotte06 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:37 pm

Destiny wrote:In my opinion, if a subject is worth capturing, then its worth spending a little time setting the WB in order to capture the photos correctly in order to give the software a fighting chance to stitch correctly. I think in all honestly, rather than spend time with images that have not been captured correctly and testing software which might fix your shooting errors, I would practice with the features of the camera to avoid this situation again.. Quality is much better than quantity.. I would again suggest you use a camera that can shoot RAW since if you do not have the correct WB settings, you will be able to fix it..
Destiny...


I agree with you, when I go somewhere to specifically shoot a pano, I take a tripot, put a high definition lense on my 5Dmk3 (the 35mm f/2.0 for instance), set the camera in manual mode, shoot raw to set the WB I want, etc.
But, sometime, I am at a place with a nice panorama that I didn't anticipate, I don't have any time to take any precaution, and I shoot handheld in full auto as fast as I can. That's real life.
And, although I am using the most sophistiacted stitching software on the market, i.e. Autopano Giga, I expect that sophisticated software to properly do the basics, like it did years ago when I saw a Kolor guy taking a handled pano with a P&S camera and assemble the pano on the fly during an event, which convinced my to buy the license.

Either there is a big bug in APG 3.7 and Kolor fixes it, or my diagnostic is that, although adding more and more sophisticated capabilities to APG, Kolor has forgotten the basics...
The proof is that several other programs, far simpler, with akward UIs, that didn't evolve since years, sometime developed by a single guy, can do better on a 5 pictures pano. Not a little better... much better. Look at the output of APG 3.7, it's simply unacceptable. Even after twickings by Martin it's not so good.

Olivier

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by klausesser » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:50 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:I am afraid I do not agree... Look closely at martin's result, and you will see that the left half of the pano he obtained is awfully yellow tainted, and that yellow taint did not exist at all in the source image... Neither the pano produced by Photomerge nor the one produced by Panorama Factory have such a yellow cast.


That´s not a good result in terms of colors, yes. But judging the tone-values it´s very good editable colorwise.
It´s not too dark in the left part (as the others) and not too washed-out in the right part.

But i think you should either learn to shoot correctly, learn how to handle the programm . . or choose a quick-and-dirty
app which meets your demands. But be aware of the fact that this app also sometimes will do good and other times won´t.

I´m quite shure that by setting the prefs in APG or in PTGui correctly you can also achieve a perfect result almost automatically. But i know it´s not too easy to understand HOW to set the prefs the optimal way.

Because of Kolor´s documentation is rather basic you just need to put in a bit more efforts in learning instead of complaining ;) :cool:

Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Destiny » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:18 pm

Do you have a RAW set of photos of this shoot.. I always leave my camera set to capture JPS and RAW.. Its really essential you do this.. If you are in a situation of not being able to set the WB etc, you can fix it later..

Destiny..

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Marmotte06 » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:23 pm

klausesser wrote:That´s not a good result in terms of colors, yes. But judging the tone-values it´s very good editable colorwise.
It´s not too dark in the left part (as the others) and not too washed-out in the right part.

Agreed, with additional post-processing you can do something correct with that pano.

klausesser wrote:But i think you should either learn to shoot correctly

I am photographing since 30+ years and have learnt a little bit about it ;-)

klausesser wrote:I´m quite shure that by setting the prefs in APG or in PTGui correctly you can also achieve a perfect result almost automatically.

Ah, here is the interesting discussion. If you need specific configs, then it's no more automatic. I am working in IT, and IT is currently undergoing a profund transformation. The trend is automatization, no config, extremely simple user interface, flat design. This trend is driven by the mobile revolution, and the entire IT is following. You do have to put more and more intelligence in the SW and ask less and less to the user, because the gen D is now used to try an appli and throw it away if it doesn't do the job.

If I complain about APG, it's because that program is good, and I would like that it survives as long as possible. And I think there is a risk it doesn't.

Olivier

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by mediavets » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:49 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:But, sometime, I am at a place with a nice panorama that I didn't anticipate, I don't have any time to take any precaution, and I shoot handheld in full auto as fast as I can. That's real life.
Olivier


Sounds like nonsense to me...there was nothing in that scene that was going to change in an hour let alone a minute or two.

Had you shot aperture priority auto with a fixed WB you would have got a better result and that takes no effort at all.

And I don't understand why it would be much effort to shoot RAW either.

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Destiny » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:53 pm

Olivier, you have been photographing for as long as I am old.. I would have thought you would have learnt more than just a Little bit about it.. Each time I go out I try to do better than the last time.. I often do but.. when I reflect on my photography weeks or months later, I can be critical of the results, I rarely feel the photos are nice weeks later... To me, your images are happy snaps with little attention to subject. I really do not believe you can blame APG for your photography skills.. Expectations of APG are high I realise this. But I really do not feel that you could expect to drop happy snaps into APG and expect Michelangelo quality to pop out of the other end and then be critical of the software when its not..

Destiny...

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by klausesser » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:58 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:. . and I would like that it survives as long as possible. And I think there is a risk it doesn't.


I don´t think so. Automation is for dummies . . . ;) =D :cool:

Seriously: we have a saying here which i try to translate: "Don´t try to dance on everybody´s wedding" :cool:

Automatics everywhere lead to minimizing skills. That´s a very bad thing. The trend which i see is the growing
importance of good and valuable handcrafting.

Each and every crook can do things automatically. This leads to more and more reduced prices and worse and
worse quality.

THIS is NOT what i think has a future.

Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by Destiny » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:04 pm

Don't you mean "Cook!".. ;)

Destiny...

klausesser wrote:
Marmotte06 wrote:. . and I would like that it survives as long as possible. And I think there is a risk it doesn't.


I don´t think so. Automation is for dummies . . . ;) =D :cool:

Seriously: we have a saying here which i try to translate: "Don´t try to dance on everybody´s wedding" :cool:

Automatics everywhere lead to minimizing skills. That´s a very bad thing. The trend which i see is the growing
importance of good and valuable handcrafting.

Each and every crook can do things automatically. This leads to more and more reduced prices and worse and
worse quality.

THIS is NOT what i think has a future.

Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by marzipano » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:26 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:
Destiny wrote:BTW... Can you make your full size images available for testing..
Destiny..


Yes, I have uploaded them on my Orange cloud account. Send me a private mail with your email and I will share.

Olivier


I would like to have a try with the actual images instead of screenshots. I cannot get the pm to work for some reason (I hope I haven't just emailed you 10 requests by mistake :)

Can you pm me the url to access

thx
Martin

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by klausesser » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:08 pm

Destiny wrote:Don't you mean "Cook!".. ;)



oops - yes, of course, of course . . ;) :cool:

Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by AlexandreJ » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:04 pm

Olivier,

I did a quick test with the next autopano ( v4.0 ) on your images. These images are quite challenging as you were using a filter over it, right ?
Nevertheless, the results are really perfect with the new color correction engine that is inside v4.
Attachments
apg4 perso [Group 0]-Chat-4077-5d3_Chat-4081-5d3-5 images.jpg
My personal settings ( 2 color anchors at ends of the panorama and in the middle free )
apg4 MB0 [Group 0]-Chat-4077-5d3_Chat-4081-5d3-5 images.jpg
Settings with multiband at 0
apg4 default [Group 0]-Chat-4077-5d3_Chat-4081-5d3-5 images.jpg
Default setting in APG 4

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by marzipano » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:34 pm

Thanks for the originals Olivier
These give better results in APG than the screenshots did above

I found the same settings worked best for the real images as for the screenshots - that was

Image 3 as reference
All Anchors set to gamma+exposure+colour
Blending level = 0
gamma slider =1.4

(so different to what Alexandre said above too !)

Out of interest and because you felt something had changed in 3.7 I tried all my archived old versions of APG as well so the 4 images are 2.09, 2.6, 3.0 and 3.7 (in that order)
(I would have tried 4.0 as well but you have to be the MD to do that )

I found no difference since version 2.6 but if I had to decide, in this case I think the SmartBlend in v2.0 handles the sky tones in the most consistent way in that there is no shift to more purple going from right to left

best
Martin
Attachments
APG 2.09.jpg
APG 2.6.jpg
APG 3.0.jpg
APG 3.7.jpg

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by klausesser » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:52 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:Nevertheless, the results are really perfect with the new color correction engine that is inside v4.



Sorry - i cannot agree here, Alexandre. Have a closer look to the color-shift in the sky.

best, Klaus

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Re: Serious problem with sky stitching with apg 3.7

by AlexandreJ » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:21 am

It is a question of task. My first screenshot is the one I prefer as it really reflect what we have in input images.
I don't want an uniform sky, I want a gradient in it, because this gradient already exist in the sources.

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