Support for MacBook Pro Retina  

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ChrisGVE
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Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by ChrisGVE » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:59 pm

I am a bit puzzled that after more than a year of existence the MacBook retina is still not supported. To the credit of Kolor, Adobe although bigger took also its time to convert its interfaces to the retina resolution, thus Kolor still has the benefits of the doubt.

However, I would recommend that Kolor tackles this item which incidentally also occurs on the website. Nowadays, websites or apps which are still not supporting retina resolution seem to be old and out of sync.

I've been a happy Auto Pano Pro and Auto Pano Giga user for years and I hope to see a retina interface soon.

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HansKeesom
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:33 pm

Why should Kolor solve a problem that was caused by Apple. If Apple want to sell machines that are partly incompatible with the rest of the world, go ahead, but don't blame others for it.

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by ChrisGVE » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:26 am

HansKeesom wrote:Why should Kolor solve a problem that was caused by Apple. If Apple want to sell machines that are partly incompatible with the rest of the world, go ahead, but don't blame others for it.


That's constructive

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:43 am

ChrisGVE wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Why should Kolor solve a problem that was caused by Apple. If Apple want to sell machines that are partly incompatible with the rest of the world, go ahead, but don't blame others for it.


That's constructive


Thank you. But do you have an answer? Why should Kolor solve a problem caused by Apple? Why do you blame Kolor for Apple's choices?

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ChrisGVE
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by ChrisGVE » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:17 am

HansKeesom wrote:
ChrisGVE wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Why should Kolor solve a problem that was caused by Apple. If Apple want to sell machines that are partly incompatible with the rest of the world, go ahead, but don't blame others for it.


That's constructive


Thank you. But do you have an answer? Why should Kolor solve a problem caused by Apple? Why do you blame Kolor for Apple's choices?


I assume with both the tone and content of your interventions that you neither own nor use Apple product, thus this topic does not concern you nor do I owe you an answer in that matter.

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HansKeesom
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:50 pm

ChrisGVE wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Thank you. But do you have an answer? Why should Kolor solve a problem caused by Apple? Why do you blame Kolor for Apple's choices?


I assume with both the tone and content of your interventions that you neither own nor use Apple product, thus this topic does not concern you nor do I owe you an answer in that matter.


There is no tone in my reply, certainly not more then your original post. There are just simple questions which we both are unable or unwilling to answer.

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by lumelix » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:49 pm

Hi Chris
What's exactly the problem with APG and the Apple retina Display?
Afaik the MacBook Pro 15' has 2880x1800 Pixel resolution.
Can't you maximize APG to this size?
If it's so this shouldn't be a big problem for kolor to change this limits.
On my (windows) desktop with 3760x1600 it works.
Regards
Martin

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HansKeesom
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:00 pm

lumelix wrote:Hi Chris
What's exactly the problem with APG and the Apple retina Display?
Afaik the MacBook Pro 15' has 2880x1800 Pixel resolution.
Can't you maximize APG to this size?
If it's so this shouldn't be a big problem for kolor to change this limits.
On my (windows) desktop with 3760x1600 it works.


It has to do with dpi, there are more dots per inch or better pixels per inch. There are double the number of pixels per inch on a retina display.
Your windows desktop is not 17 inch problably.
Read here what CSS-programmers have to deal with
http://www.sitepoint.com/css-techniques ... -displays/

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ChrisGVE
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by ChrisGVE » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:02 am

lumelix wrote:Hi Chris
What's exactly the problem with APG and the Apple retina Display?
Afaik the MacBook Pro 15' has 2880x1800 Pixel resolution.
Can't you maximize APG to this size?
If it's so this shouldn't be a big problem for kolor to change this limits.
On my (windows) desktop with 3760x1600 it works.


The point is that the APG interface has not yet been updated to support the pixel density of the retina display. As indicated in my initial post, APG is functional but it does not fully use the display quality.

On windows there is no concept of retina/non-retina thus if you double your screen resolution in both axis, the same windows and its content will occupy the same pixel space, thus it will occupy 4x less space on the physical screen (eventually ending up with a non-readable interface if the screen is physically too small). On Mac retina increases the pixel density (similarly to the iPhone or iPad retina) without changing the physical space taken by graphic elements, so a window displayed on a 15" retina will use the same physical space as the same window on a 15" non-retina display. The different will however be seen on text which will be drawn with more pixels, thus smoother and easier to read, and apps supporting retina display will provide 2 sets of icons, a regular one for non-retina display and a set with twice the pixel density for retina display. When, they don't (as for APG) the regular icons are expanded and tend to be ugly...

Long explanation, but if you have a chance to see one of these retina macbook in a shop you'll see what I'm talking about :)

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by lumelix » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:24 am

Hi Chris
I have looking at a retina display several times because it also interests me as a photographer.
But unfortunately there wasn't APG installed on it.
Can you post here a screenshot (in full resolution) from APG so we get an idea
what's going on and what can be optimized?
Can you also increase the text size on mac like we can do on windows systems?
All symbols and icons APG is using are in a user folder and can be edited or magnifying
(in windows folder C:\Users\name\AppData\Local\Kolor\Autopano ...\Kolor\UI).
Regards
Martin

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HansKeesom
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:42 am

lumelix wrote:Hi Chris
....
Can you also increase the text size on mac like we can do on windows systems?
All symbols and icons APG is using are in a user folder and can be edited or magnifying
(in windows folder C:\Users\name\AppData\Local\Kolor\Autopano ...\Kolor\UI).

On a Mac with retina text size is ok.
Editing symbols and icons would cause problems on non-retina display. Websites (and software generating for websites) really need to (generate) different code (see my link earlier) for retinadisplay to solve this. Untill then, owners of retina display have a non-optimal experience....

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klausesser
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by klausesser » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:30 pm

lumelix wrote:Hi Chris
I have looking at a retina display several times because it also interests me as a photographer.
But unfortunately there wasn't APG installed on it.
Can you post here a screenshot (in full resolution) from APG so we get an idea
what's going on and what can be optimized?
Can you also increase the text size on mac like we can do on windows systems?
All symbols and icons APG is using are in a user folder and can be edited or magnifying
(in windows folder C:\Users\name\AppData\Local\Kolor\Autopano ...\Kolor\UI).


Issues regarding the Retina´s way of displaying content have a tradtion since the Retinas came out.
In this manner Chris is absolutely right.

But on the other hand: is it on Kolor - or any other small vendor - to match their programs to this kind of display?
I mean: no. It´s up to Apple to provide better comptibility.

We bought a Retina iPad as it came out - and until today diaplaying panoramas isn´t as good as it should be.

The solution which i use actually: i produce the most relevant ones new using the latest KRPano option of multires on html5.
This way displaying them on iPads is MUCH better.

See it here:
"old version" http://360impressions.de/GrecoPan/ (see it on iPads and desktops)
"new version" http://360impressions.de/ElGreco (see it on iPads, desktops and Androids)

Klaus

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HansKeesom
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:22 pm

klausesser wrote:
We bought a Retina iPad as it came out - and until today diaplaying panoramas isn´t as good as it should be.

The solution which i use actually: i produce the most relevant ones new using the latest KRPano option of multires on html5.
This way displaying them on iPads is MUCH better.

See it here:
"old version" http://360impressions.de/GrecoPan/ (see it on iPads and desktops)
"new version" http://360impressions.de/ElGreco (see it on iPads, desktops and Androids)

Klaus


How do the buttons and icons look on the retina iPad?

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klausesser
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by klausesser » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:53 pm

HansKeesom wrote:How do the buttons and icons look on the retina iPad?


As usual! No issue.

Klaus

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:07 pm

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:How do the buttons and icons look on the retina iPad?


As usual! No issue.

Klaus

That's cool. Now we need to find someone with a macbook with retina display to see if you pano's look good on it....

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by lumelix » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:28 pm

Hi all
Now I'm confused!
Is now the user interface in APG the problem on retina displays or is it the visualization of the resulting panoramas on these displays?
As I understand Chris said that the UI is not optimal. So I would like to see a screenshot for better understanding.

If the problem is with the visualization it's depending on the used browser. Only the latest versions of the most used browser
like iE10, Firefox or Safari support multires images and content. With this browser, you can share your content in a twice as high resolution
than for "normal" view ports. But this have nothing to do with APG ?
Regards
Martin

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:33 pm

lumelix wrote:Hi all
Now I'm confused!
Is now the user interface in APG the problem on retina displays or is it the visualization of the resulting panoramas on these displays?
As I understand Chris said that the UI is not optimal. So I would like to see a screenshot for better understanding.

If the problem is with the visualization it's depending on the used browser. Only the latest versions of the most used browser
like iE10, Firefox or Safari support multires images and content. With this browser, you can share your content in a twice as high resolution
than for "normal" view ports. But this have nothing to do with APG ?


I believe Multires and Retina compatability is not the same thing. But I stand corrected if someone correts me ;-)

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by klausesser » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:05 pm

HansKeesom wrote:I believe Multires and Retina compatability is not the same thing. But I stand corrected if someone correts me ;-)



You´re correct!

I talked about displaying panoramas - not the workspace.

Klaus

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by lumelix » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:50 pm

Hi
Multires is not the same, it's one way to show content in a better resolution on an retina display.
This is exactly what you are talking about a little bit off topic above:

Here you can read what the other "big" pano-solution can do in this case:
http://krpano.com/tools/kmakemultires/

But back to the topic: Would be nice when CHRIS can give us some informations
what's going wrong on a Mac with retina display. Thank you !
Regards
Martin

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:05 am

Here's an explanation of what happens.

http://www.newfangled.com/optimize_your ... a_displays

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by klausesser » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:05 am

lumelix wrote:Hi
Multires is not the same, it's one way to show content in a better resolution on an retina display.
This is exactly what you are talking about a little bit off topic above:

Here you can read what the other "big" pano-solution can do in this case:
http://krpano.com/tools/kmakemultires/

But back to the topic: Would be nice when CHRIS can give us some informations
what's going wrong on a Mac with retina display. Thank you !


The problem is that Safari on iOS scales non-Retina-optimized content in a somewhat funny way.
Optimized content gets didplayed very good!

best, Klaus

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ChrisGVE
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by ChrisGVE » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:13 am

You are all pretty correct with what you say. From a software perspective there are 2 ways to support higher pixel density:
1. Supporting multi resolution only (then if you're density double, conversely the interface size will shrink by two; text, bars, icons, etc will be smaller)
2. Supporting both multi resolution and higher density: multi resolution because natively a 13" or 15" will have different resolution, managing density will allow to keep an interface with the same size and using graphical elements twice as big for the retina version or if they are not available, scaling up all existing graphical element

Windows took the 1st road, thus if your interface cannot be read, you will need to increase font size but some apps might not easily support increasing their graphic elements (only one size might be available for graphical elements). Apple took the 2nd road, which is a slightly better user experience because texts in the interface have the same size for retina or non-retina (just they have more pixels available to draw characters with the retina and thus they look smoother) but it requires software publisher to provide two sets of icons and other graphic elements, one normal size for non-retina and one double-side for retina. If they don't, graphical elements will be scaled up with a simple algorithm (doubling each pixel of the original icon) and it looks pretty bad, and even can be more difficult to identify than on non-retina in some extreme cases.

Also what Klaus says is completely right about Safari on iOS (and other apps), if retina optimized content is not available it will be scaled up on the screen and will look very funny. On the other hand when optimized content is displayed it looks really very good! It is exactly the same with a MacBook Pro with a retina display and unfortunately Kolor has not yet optimized its apps for Retina.

Now I am very happy to explain to windows users what is the difference between a traditional laptop and a retina one, but this is not the place to do that. The issue I am encountering is only (AFAIK) related to Retina MacBook Pros and as Kolor does sell its apps for Mac, my expectation is that they should support all of them. It is their right to decide not to do it and ultimately mine to decide to nevertheless stick with APG or to move away from it.

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by klausesser » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:11 pm

ChrisGVE wrote:
and unfortunately Kolor has not yet optimized its apps for Retina.


Just curious: did you ckeck PTP2.0 in this aspect?

Klaus

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ChrisGVE
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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by ChrisGVE » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:15 am

klausesser wrote:
ChrisGVE wrote:
and unfortunately Kolor has not yet optimized its apps for Retina.


Just curious: did you ckeck PTP2.0 in this aspect?

Klaus


Actually I have not, I use APG only.
Chris

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Re: Support for MacBook Pro Retina

by HansKeesom » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:47 pm

Could anyone with a retina macbook answer this for us?
How does the panotour 2.0 as an application look on a retina screen?
How does a tour generated with panotour 2.0 look on a retina screen?

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