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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Dear Klaus, I will try to explain to you the mistake you are making.

Let's go through it step by step.

1 I show the effect of the turning head of the girl while zooming in
2 you say it is caused by bracketing
3 I make the panoram non-bracketing by removing 2 of the 3 layers. I find the effect of the turning head is still there, proofing the effect is not caused by bracketing
4 You continu to state it is caused by bracketing

If it is not clear to you, maybe George can jump in. I'm am not waisting more time on you, but I will ask the forum administrators to respond to you next time you seem to be unable to communicate in a decent way.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:17 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
Dear Klaus, I will try to explain to you the mistake you are making.

Let's go through it step by step.

1 I show the effect of the turning head of the girl while zooming in
2 you say it is caused by bracketing
3 I make the panoram non-bracketing by removing 2 of the 3 layers. I find the effect of the turning head is still there, proofing the effect is not caused by bracketing
4 You continu to state it is caused by bracketing

If it is not clear to you, maybe George can jump in. I'm am not waisting more time on you, but I will ask the forum administrators to respond to you next time you seem to be unable to communicate in a decent way.

;):cool:

Klaus

PS -

just had a look over the conversation regarding 1) to 4) : sorry, but you either didn´t read what i wrote at all or you didn´t simply understand what i wrote at all.

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Last edited by klausesser on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:37 am 
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I absolutely read and understood what you wrote. Unfortunately it has absolutely nothing to do with the problem discussed here. The same things happens with lens flare etc, hardly something you can tell to sit still..

Whatever APG does or not does, the correct way is that it should be consistently do the same thing at every % of zoom. At the moment it is making different choices at different zoomlevels. That is a bug, a big one.

It is very kind of you to list all kind of methods to avoid this bug, It know all of these already, and I know how to avoid them when shooting and I know how to correct them afterward, that is not the point.

The point is APG should be consistently do the same thing at every % of zoom.

This section of the forum is about Autopano bugs, here you have one.





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I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Since reporting this bug no-one of KOLOR has responded. Meanwhile I see more and more situations where this bug appears. It feels like only when looking at the whole picture one will see the final result, zooming in means too many photos are left out of the preview algoritm, photos that do have an effect on areas of the final render, but are not taken into account when doing preview.\
Kolor gets away with this trick to speed up things because most of the time it has no significant effect. But wrong it is and very annoying.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:00 am 
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Actually, to have same antighost result in preview mode we have render the full panorama at the full size...
We added an explanation in preview documentation:
http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Autopano_Giga_-_Panorama_Editor_-_Render_tools

Antighost algorithm trys to solve a system of equations where all parts of all pictures are considered. So, if you change crop or resolution system of equation is changed and result too.
We keep the algorithm in the preview because in simple case (evident antighost solution) result can be stable. In your case, you have to use the mask tools and add a green marker on each person you want to keep. This should stabilize antighost choices.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:48 am 
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The preview only needs to take into consideration all the photos that are actually showing pixels of what is inside the preview window. Any photo that has no pixel that is mapped inside the current view can be discarded. If what you say about APG is true, I have to call this inefficient programming.

I already was assuming that the preview is considering a too small number of photos at different zoom levels, please look into it. A preview is only a preview if it includes all photos that fall inside the preview-window


I can understand you have cut corners to speed things up but after a initial quick and dirty preview you should go on and deliver the perfect preview, even if it takes much longer. I am willing to pay for an expensive GPU but it is worthless if APG continues to have this flaw.

To solve this flaw , I would like to ask for a expanded preview mode in which, after presenting a preview like it is done in the current version, calculations continue and a horizontally and vertically twice as large area is considered for photos that need to be considered. So when looking at a 50 % preview I would like all photos to be considered that are now considered when at 25%. This should solve this problem. It will take 4 times as long maybe but at least I have a correct result and don't need to do full rendering to find another flaw in the panorama.

With all respect, I am rather sure there is no need for full render to be able to preview a zoomed in area, just consider a big enough area.

Maybe you can make a special version for me that just considers 4 times as many photos as normal. I will test it and let you know whether this problem is solved.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:35 am 
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Renan,

Please at an option called "Preview quality" which has the following values
-single : which is what is done at the moment
-double : which calculates an area twice at wide and twice as heigh as what is done when "single" is selected
-triple : which calculates an area three times as wide and three times as heigh as what is done when "single" is selected
-full : calculates the whole panorama and shows only the part one has selected in the preview window.
-stairs : first calculates single, then continues to do double, triple and full until the user moves the cursor in this editor again

The full option will take lot of time but is better then doing a full render, opening the image to find another error.
Of course with the full option, when it is finished, I can pan and tilt to view each and every corner of the panorama to check for errors without having to recalculate.

I would love to have 6 panoramas in their editor, tell them to do a full preview and came back after an hour to check all of them at 100% zoom for errors and place some markers. Then hit full preview render for all of them again and came back one hour later again...

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I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:45 pm 
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renan wrote:
Actually, to have same antighost result in preview mode we have render the full panorama at the full size...
We added an explanation in preview documentation:
http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Autopano_Giga_-_Panorama_Editor_-_Render_tools

Antighost algorithm trys to solve a system of equations where all parts of all pictures are considered. So, if you change crop or resolution system of equation is changed and result too.
We keep the algorithm in the preview because in simple case (evident antighost solution) result can be stable. In your case, you have to use the mask tools and add a green marker on each person you want to keep. This should stabilize antighost choices.

Renan,

I have to Support Hans way of thinking. I can fully reproduce the phenomen/bug since years now.
You Review your pano in preview in percentage x and you decide the pano is working fine, ready to render.
I can render now at 100% and do conclude that erroes have to be solved.
zooming deeper may give you massive more Errors like Hans did Show.

so what should I think if I zoom in at lets say 5% and see ghosts on a specific Scene, zooming to 15% and the ghosts are gone, zooming into 35% and ghosts (but others than at5%) are back and zooming at 60% and they're gon again.

so for user: the preview is getting useless - there's no meaningfulness and no consistend behavior.
if the ghost can be eliminated than this must be seen in all zoomlevels
if the ghost cant be eliminated than this must be seen in all zoomlevels.

Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Have to admit, if an error is there in preview, it is also there in the final render, at least half of the consistency is working ;-)

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I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:09 am 
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Actually, preview is not really cropped to window size. There is a frame of 25% on each side for enabling small moving and zooming.

Even if we add some preview options, if rendering is not exactly the same in size and crop of final rendering antighost algorithm can give different results.

So, I have a question: are you ready to wait the full rendering time for having the real final panorama in the editor ?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:47 am 
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Hi Renan,

To answer your question : YES I am ready to wait for the full rendering result. I would love to start the preview in f.e. 6 editors and came back one/two/three hour later and be sure that I will see each and every detail exactly as it will be when rendered, being able to quickly solve them. I will buy a much stronger GPU if I have to.

The 25% is indeed what I noticed before when moving to the side or up and down. I always dreamed of it automaticly continuing in the backgroudn

My proposal would be to have this "preview frame size" as an option with a default value of 25%, so one can choose the frame from the current 25% up to a value that would do a total render.

My feeling is that a value of 100% is likely to solve all my problems but I guess the more you zoom in the higher the max value should be.

As a rule of thumb I guess that the level of zoom is a good value for the frame %, funny as it might sound. Maybe this is an idea for an auto-value for this option.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:43 am 
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renan wrote:
So, I have a question: are you ready to wait the full rendering time for having the real final panorama in the editor ?

That´s what i mentioned weeks ago: having a preview 1:1 to the final rendering would mean to fully render in the preview. That´s why i suggested to
do a full render with a smaller output as test.

On the other hand, Renan, i must state that the detail-viewer in PTGui´s editor shows that it´s possible to realize even minimal stitch-errors viewed @100% in
seconds.
The fact that i´m doing lots of 700mpx indoor panos at the moment means for me to NEED that kind of preview-feature for being able to achieve a fluent workflow.

I know that APG is following basically different structures than PTGui - but in terms of a higher preview-res it can´t be impossible to include it in APG also, i mean.

I guess that 80% of panoramas are made with fisheyes - which means few images and average resolution of about 120MPx.
With these kind of panos the limited previes is no big issue - but remember: it´s AutoPano-GIGA . . . and here the limited preview definitely IS an issue.

Dealing with 700mpx panos you need to have FULL control about what happens when zooming in to 100% - here you immediately can realize EACH minor error!

best, Klaus ( i hope, Hans will not delete my comment again)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:51 am 
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Can we keep the discussion on topic? This section and topic is about a bug. There are other section for discussion of other less-related discussions.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Back on topic then, I think that having a "full" preview would get my vote.

The fact that stitching errors in the final render can appear that were not shown in the preview is a nuisance as I've often left APG and gone into a photo editor so (if it's a serious one) have to go back to APG and redo several steps

I'd be happy to wait much longer for the full preview to develop but would want the current "frame at a time" option as well so you can quickly flip between preview and edit mode as now just to see how things are looking without having a long wait every time


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:09 pm 
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renan wrote:
Actually, preview is not really cropped to window size. There is a frame of 25% on each side for enabling small moving and zooming.

Even if we add some preview options, if rendering is not exactly the same in size and crop of final rendering antighost algorithm can give different results.

So, I have a question: are you ready to wait the full rendering time for having the real final panorama in the editor ?

YES, if the render is concentrated only to the preview area.

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Last edited by gkaefer on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:24 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
renan wrote:
Actually, preview is not really cropped to window size. There is a frame of 25% on each side for enabling small moving and zooming.

Even if we add some preview options, if rendering is not exactly the same in size and crop of final rendering antighost algorithm can give different results.

So, I have a question: are you ready to wait the full rendering time for having the real final panorama in the editor ?

YES, if the render is concentrated only to the preview area.

:-) that is what we have already + 25% around the preview, but it seems that doing so does not deliver the exact result for that area is some cases. As I said before I can't imagine how a photo behind you can be of influence of a part of the panorama in front of you, but hey, if Kolor says so, let's assume that for a moment. As long as I can choose the % of frame around the window, I am happy, even when I need to put it so high that it actually renders the whole panorama.

The idea for the option is that the larger the frame around the window is, the more we can trust what is inside the window will be what you will get after real total rendering.

So a different name could be "preview trust percentage" ;-)

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:29 pm 
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I add the demand in the wish list.
All solutions, are not necessarly easy to handle essentially for memory reasons and will not entirely stabilize the preview. So I don't think it can appear in a minor update.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:14 pm 
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renan wrote:
I add the demand in the wish list.
All solutions, are not necessarly easy to handle essentially for memory reasons and will not entirely stabilize the preview. So I don't think it can appear in a minor update.

When you say 'memory reasons' you are talking about the amount of memory? If so, is that GPU memory you are talking about? Because if this option only/best works in RAM memory, of which most of us have much more, I would be fine with that already.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. If you want to concentrate on your business and shooting you might want me do the stitching for you.


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