At which zoom level can I be sure that the preview shows me ....  

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HansKeesom
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At which zoom level can I be sure that the preview shows me ....

by HansKeesom » Sat May 25, 2013 10:33 am

exactly how the full render will look like...

Sometimes I see an broken line at 20% zoom in into it and then it disappears or visaversa. And when I render it into a psb-file the crack might or might not show up. At which zoom % should I pan around and do previews to be sure I have spotted and solved each and every broken line in a panorama?

Could this be related to some kind of error where the area of influence of a marker is not correctly changed with the zoomfactor? At least not in the preview(render) of the editor? Or is it an alliassing effect due to the limited resolution at which the preview is calculated? Might be worth to have an extra option to have the preview calculated at double resolution to avoid this misguiding.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Sat May 25, 2013 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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HansKeesom
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by HansKeesom » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:51 pm

A pity no reaction from Kolor. Last man to turn off the lights?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by vklaffehn » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:25 pm

Hi!
I did'nt quite understand the problem, could you please show some screenshots?

Mfg
Volker Klaffehn

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by klausesser » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:22 pm

vklaffehn wrote:Hi!
I did'nt quite understand the problem, could you please show some screenshots?

Mfg
Volker Klaffehn

Hi Volker!

PTGui has a preview-window when you´re in the editor which lets you zoom in very deep for controlling pixel-precision in critical areas. I used it excessively here: www.360impressions.de/Klapheck.
Big help in that cae.

But PTGui has a very different structure from APG and i guess Kolor has a reason not to implement the function also in it´s editor.

I never felt it to be too relevant. I can see on the RMS whether there might be issues in the final rendering.

Nevertheless it would be indeed not bad to have a higher-res/zoomable editor-view in APG - but when it comes for the cost of waiting for
it to buid up i wouldn´t like that.

In the end a quick final rendering for test gives a better control for what will be coming out.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by gkaefer » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:27 pm

vklaffehn wrote:Hi!
I did'nt quite understand the problem, could you please show some screenshots?

Mfg
Volker Klaffehn

if you work on a bigger pano lets say 50mm or 85mm focal.
now open the detected pano in Editor.
enlarge the Editor Fullscreen.
the scale on Botton now says the pano is displayed at 0.2%
it Looks perfect.
zoom into one area until lets say 10%
and you see a fence broken.
zoom now to this fence up to 20% and the broken fence now is perfect again...
which preview can you trust? without try&error Rendering the final pano...

Georg

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by vklaffehn » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:36 pm

Thanks for the explanation, Georg.
I thought for that you have that small 'render preview' button in APG3? Or is this where it happens?

Volker

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by HansKeesom » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Thank you Georg,
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:18 pm

gkaefer wrote:which preview can you trust?

None - that´s why it´s called pre-view :cool:

gkaefer wrote:without try&error Rendering the final pano...

That´s the point.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by HansKeesom » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:34 pm

A preview you cannot trust is a bad preview, a mistake of the programme(r).

What we want is a preview we can trust. Trust means that what we see at a certain zoom % will be how the final render will look if be place it on screen it same size on screen.

Should not be too difficult, use the same algoritme as the actual rendering, just make it work on the part of the panorama that is currently visible in the preview window and use the zoom % of the window to calculate a % that works like the one you can set when starting a real render. Instead of outputting to a file on disk display the result in the review window. Easy. Still why we don't have it?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Jeremiahscott » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:27 am

Yep, we are having issues here as well. The RMS is a great overall guide, but it can also be misleading. We need a more accurate rendering of the preview. If that means, as klaus recommended, that we need to render out a low res version.... That makes for a really tough workflow In a high volume situation. I'm hoping with better hardware the editing process won't take as long, but I can't see going through the render process several times to determine if you have what you think you have.

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by klausesser » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:46 pm

Jeremiahscott wrote:Yep, we are having issues here as well. The RMS is a great overall guide, but it can also be misleading. We need a more accurate rendering of the preview. If that means, as klaus recommended, that we need to render out a low res version.... That makes for a really tough workflow In a high volume situation. I'm hoping with better hardware the editing process won't take as long, but I can't see going through the render process several times to determine if you have what you think you have.

You see - photographers like me usually do test-shots before they do the final shot. In analogue times that meant when i did a still-life i shot a dia, send it to the lab and wait an hour for the result before doing the final shot.
This test-shot - which REALLY showed me anything relevant like filtering, light-mood, DOF and so on was the base the for the final shots where i did the filtering or so basing on what i saw in the test-shot.

Of course we did large-format Polaroids as well - but they can´t show reliably the final result.

So: take "Polaroid" for "pre-view". See what i mean? :cool:

I agree it would be fine to have a close-up window for controlling glitches in critical areas - like it exists it in PTGui. It´s extremely flexible and comfortable for editing pixel-perfect even in large and complicated scenarios seeing
what we edit @100%.

I used it here - very complicated because extremely geometrical structures in a series of 700mb panos indoors: http://www.360impressions.de/Klapheck/

Because of deeper zooming as usual you NEED a perfect matching at 100%. I realized to have had in one scene a very small mis-alignment of ONE millimeter on the rail. That was enough to cause trouble in stitching the Zenith - the xml was correct, the mechanical alignment wasn´t.

Regarding the structures and the light in the celing-area it´s not surprising at all . . .

So: i really understand your demand. But i don´t know anything about the internal structure of APG - i think there´s a reason why they do it like they do . . . :cool:

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by lumelix » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:18 pm

What is if you zoom in 100% ?
Are there also such preview errors that differ from the final render ?

Btw: Beautifull light there in the art room, Klaus!
Last edited by lumelix on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin

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by klausesser » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:55 pm

lumelix wrote:What is if you zoom in 100% ?
Are there also such preview errors that differ from the final render ?

Btw: Beautifull light there in the art room, Klaus!

Thx, Martin!

Yes - i love the rooms there.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:25 pm

Jeremiahscott wrote:Yep, we are having issues here as well. The RMS is a great overall guide, but it can also be misleading. We need a more accurate rendering of the preview. If that means, as klaus recommended, that we need to render out a low res version.... That makes for a really tough workflow In a high volume situation. I'm hoping with better hardware the editing process won't take as long, but I can't see going through the render process several times to determine if you have what you think you have.

Indeed, using rendering as a preview........that sounds like the long way home.

Yes with better hardware editing go faster. With 32 GB om mem I am now well able to edit 4 panoramas at the same time (10000*5000 pano's) Editing one while the other is calculating the preview. When all are calculating preview I just walk off to do something else in my house. When the CPU-fan is silent again and I check the results and make corrections. Moving over the panorama at 200% zoom previewing everuthing should make sure there are no more tripodlegs or big other problems in the final render. However.....when the preview is not like the final render, this workflow becames a bit shaky.

Still, another 32 GB has been ordered as it likely allows me to edit 6 or 7 at the same time, improving my productivity again a bit. Next step is a faster GPU. 4GB of GPU memory is nice in combo with a lot of normal RAM, but the current GPU has a 128 bit data transfer which seems to be a bottleneck.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:00 am

Here is an example that shows the problem even more clearly. Look at the eyes and the head of the girl in the middle, at 49 and 65 %. There is something very, very, very wrong here.

In the final render I got the eyes like in 49. Seems like when you zoom in not all photos that actually do have the head of this girl are regarded anymore.




Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:08 am

To make it more fun, here is 161 and 194 procent




Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:20 am

And it is not only when zooming. Watch the girl behind the bar as I pan the panorama




Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:43 am

Turned GPU off........same problem........ so it is not my cheap GPU card
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:41 am

HansKeesom wrote:To make it more fun, here is 161 and 194 procent

Process the brackets BEFORE stitching and a part of the issue is gone.

Klaus
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by marzipano » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:58 am

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:To make it more fun, here is 161 and 194 procent

Process the brackets BEFORE stitching and a part of the issue is gone.

Klaus

All of the issue is gone if you are specifically talking about bracketing

APG has no antighosting for bracketed sets

Martin

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by klausesser » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:30 am

marzipano wrote:
klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:To make it more fun, here is 161 and 194 procent

Process the brackets BEFORE stitching and a part of the issue is gone.

Klaus

All of the issue is gone if you are specifically talking about bracketing

APG has no antighosting for bracketed sets

Martin

Hi Martin!

You´re right! That´s - among other features - what works fine in Photomatix and which is the reason i prefer to suggest it´s
use BEFORE stitching the images. Seems not everybody recognizes the meaning of it.

Question of experience: don´t shoot moving people bracketed AND as a panorama - or calculate a lot of working on the shots . . :cool:

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:55 pm

So let's assume your theory is right. and I should not bracket with moving people.

In that case de-selecting all photos in the -2 and the +2 range layer should make what I saw go away.......right?
Layers were shot at 1/15, 1/44 and 1/599999
So in the editor i deselected the first and the last, see picture below

Zoomed in on the girl again and....bazinga .....she made the turning with her head again. Same thing for the lady behind the bar.

The percentages at which I see the turning of the head is a bit higher now, that is a different.

Conclusion for the moment, theory rejected, we still have a bug in the editors preview


Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:34 pm

HansKeesom wrote:So let's assume your theory is right. and I should not bracket with moving people.

In that case de-selecting all photos in the -2 and the +2 range layer should make what I saw go away.......right?
Layers were shot at 1/15, 1/44 and 1/599999
So in the editor i deselected the first and the last, see picture below

Zoomed in on the girl again and....bazinga .....she made the turning with her head again. Same thing for the lady behind the bar.

The percentages at which I see the turning of the head is a bit higher now, that is a different.

Conclusion for the moment, theory rejected, we still have a bug in the editors preview

Try to think like a photographer: shooting bracketed when objects (people) move means to have at least parts of the objects multiple times on multple positions.

So: "the bug" definitely is the photographer . . . ;):cool:

He´d better had talked to the people to hold still for some seconds when he shoots (that´s what i do and what works quite well - or i wouldn´t shoot. Very simple).
Additional to the moving between *bracketed-shots* come multiple placing of the objects in the multiple *pano-shots*.
So we have TWO different events here which need to be compensated:
1) Bracketing
2) sequential panoshots

Resulting in multiple positions multiply exposed per position. That´s hard for the stitcher!
ONE source of multiplity is to process the brackted shots BEFORE stitchingt and use "ghost removal"
in the HDR-app.
This way thej stitcher still has to deal only with movings between the *pano-shots*. THIS movings between the sequential pano-positions you can compensate using the mask-tool.

What you get is a "clean" stitch without ghosts.

As an experienced photographer i know:
1) i´d better avoid such situations at all
or
2) i do it - but have full controll about anything that moves. People never refused when i asked them to hold still for some seconds.

No other way in the end - THINK before you SHOOT . . ;):cool:

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:39 pm

I was not responding to you Klaus, your response is another example of why.
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by klausesser » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:44 pm

HansKeesom wrote:I was not responding to you Klaus, your response is another example of why.

Ok - sorry: i forgot you don´t want to learn.

So forget it all.

Klaus
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