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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:04 pm 
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When i try to create a panoramic image i got worse results using import from Gigapan [ default parameters ] than using the classic import browse folder.

I expected have better results using this information :( is it normal?

Does someone have the same experience?


Thanks for your feedback

Jorge




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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:31 pm 
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I'm using AutoPano Giga 64bits 3.0.3


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:24 pm 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
I'm using AutoPano Giga 64bits 3.0.3

Did you try 3.0.5?:

http://www.kolor.com/download-autopano-panotour-panorama-virtual-tour-software.html

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Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:26 pm 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
When i try to create a panoramic image i got worse results using import from Gigapan [ default parameters ] than using the classic import browse folder.

I expected have better results using this information :( is it normal?

Does someone have the same experience?


Thanks for your feedback

Jorge

On what basis do you think it's worse - I can't see any detail on your uploaded images.

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Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:32 am 
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I installed 3.0.5 and i have the same result.

Concerning why i said that the result is worse. I uploaded 4 images.
1st: I show the result when I used import Browse Folder. I got 3 groups
2nd: I show where the groups have to be together.
3rd: I show the image after going to edit group 1 (the result is really good except for the missed images )
4th: i show the result when I used import from Gigapan. so i got only 1 group. I highlight the stitching problem the result is unusable.

Jorge










Last edited by jorge_hernandez on Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:43 am 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
I installed 3.0.5 and i have the same result.

Concerning why i said that the result is worse. I uploaded 4 images.
1st: I show the result when I used import Browse Folder. I got 3 groups
2nd: I show where the groups have to be together.
3rd: I show the image after going to edit group 1 (the result is really good except for the missed images )
4th: i show the result when I used import from Gigapan. so i got only 1 group. I highlight the stitching problem the result is unusable.

Jorge

Oh dear....

Some comments:

1. This is a typical scene that can cause detection and stitching problems - lots of plain white wall and ceiling areas.

2. You are obvioulsy using a fairly long focal length rectilinear lens to require 32 shots to cover this scsne - what camera and lens did you use? What was the focal length?

3. I think you are using a Gigapan roboti head - is that correct?

4. If so, the Giagapan robotic heads are far from ideal for shooting panos with a 360 HVOV and for panos with a relatively large VFOV - like this one. The Gigapan robots can only shoot a regular grid/matrix of images whereas it is desirable to reduce the number of image per row as you approach the zenith and nadir to avoid excessive overlapping in those areas, which can itself cause detection and stiching problems.

5. The ideal setup for this sort of scene would be a manual, or robotic, pano head with which you can shoot a non-grid pattern and a fisheye lens. The fisheye lens would offer a much greater FOV and reduce the chance of you getting 'featureless' images that APP/APG cannot link automatically to a neighbouring image.

5. Can you show some screenshots of the Panorama editor with layers selected so we can see the shooting pattern, and of the Panorama Editor in Control Points Editor mode so we can see the links and quality of links.

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Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:14 am 
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> 1. This is a typical scene that can cause detection and stitching problems - lots of plain white wall and ceiling areas.

My use cases are always indoor buildings (so a lots of uniform planes /ceilings ). For this reason i bought a motorized solution because i was thinking the stitching software used the motorized information to help the stitching and provide a better results because I have also Nodal Ninja 4 Rd 16 and I would like moving forward towards GigaPan.

> 2. You are obvioulsy using a fairly long focal length rectilinear lens to require 32 shots to cover this scsne - what camera and lens did you use? What was the focal length?
27 mm
i also have 45% of overlap (for this reason the approach using import folder works fairly enough)

> 3. I think you are using a Gigapan roboti head - is that correct?
What do you about that? I followed all user guide. Set my nodal point [adjust vertical and horizontal rails], ... Set camera into device (field of view...); 360 Panoramic and start ... Am i missing something ?

> 4. If so, the Giagapan robotic heads are far from ideal for shooting panos with a 360 HVOV and for panos with a relatively large VFOV - like this one. The Gigapan robots can only shoot a regular grid/matrix of images whereas it is desirable to reduce the number of image per row as you approach the zenith and nadir to avoid excessive overlapping in those areas, which can itself cause detection and stiching problems.

Why excessive overlapping may affect stitching? If you would have more control points and at the end a better result (i expected)

> 5. The ideal setup for this sort of scene would be a manual, or robotic, pano head with which you can shoot a non-grid pattern and a fisheye lens. The fisheye lens would offer a much greater FOV and reduce the chance of you getting 'featureless' images that APP/APG cannot link automatically to a neighbouring image.

I would like to avoid a wide angle or fisheye lens to avoid handle with distortions (vignetting, chromatic aberrations, etc. )

> 5. Can you show some screenshots of the Panorama editor with layers selected so we can see the shooting pattern, and of the Panorama Editor in Control Points Editor mode so we can see the links and quality of links.
I upload 2 images 1st links when i use Import from gigapan 2nd import from browse images

I don't understand yet how it possible have the best pano image with free stitching . and at the end what is the advantage to buy a motorized solution in the stitching workflow ?

thanks

Jorge






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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:56 am 
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If your intention is to display your panos on-line then most people are satisfied with the resolution they can achieve using a fisheye lens.

It's only worth the extra hassle of shooting spheres with longer focal elngth rectilinear lenses if you really must have the higher resolution you can achieve, and you must expect the entire process to be more complex and time consuming.

Using longer focal length lenses always increases the chances of getting stitch errors - there are simply more seams, and of course in scenes like your example - lots of white wall and ceiling - there's likely to be more chance of an image being 'featureless' so that the software cannot detect links automatically, and you are hard preswed to make links manually becaue you can't locate matching features.

If you are using a zoom lens watch out for zoom and focus creep at higher psotive and negative pitch positions.

In my opinion you made the wrong choice in shooting this scene with a longer focal length rectilinear lens rather than a good fihsye. Any chromatic aberration issues and so on are easily handled.

You then compounded your prioblems by chopsing an inappropriate robotic mount. A Giagapan robotic head which was not deisgned for shooting spherical panos, and certainly not spherical indoor panos. It is best suited to outdoor partial panos using longer focal lengths.

The fact that you must mount your camera lens in landscape orientation on a Gigapan mount also makes it less suitable for interior panos because you are still more likely to have more 'featureless' images.

You are mistaken in thinkkng that more overlap is always better, it isn't. Beyond about 30% overlap you risk getting links created between non-adjacant iages and this can result in stitchingh errors. And that's one reason why a regular grid pattern when shooting sphericals is far from ideal; of course it also means it takes longer to shoot the pano because you end up shooting more image sthat you need to. And you have to process more data too.

So my advice would be....get a fisheye lens and use it with your NN4, or if you really want a robotic head get the Panoneed or the Seitz Roundshot VR Drive, both of which can calculate an optimised (non-grid) shooting pattern for spheres and have relatively small nadir footprints. The low cost Panogear/Merlin mount is not ideal for interior spherical panos as it has a relatively large nadir footprint; it's also less accommodating of larger camera bodies due to limited scope for adjustment.

The Panoneed, VRDrive and Panogear mounts have the additional benefit of recording shooting position co-ordinates providing APP/APG with more data to help position 'featureless' images. The Gigapan mounts don't have that capability.

_________________
Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:45 pm 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
I would like to avoid a wide angle or fisheye lens to avoid handle with distortions (vignetting, chromatic aberrations, etc. )

A widely misunderstood item. Fisheye-doistortion gets completely (!) un-distorted in the stitcher.
See an some examples here:
http://360impressions.de/ZuerichBar - shot with a 2,8/15mm Canon fisheye and 5D2 - manual head (modified Manfrotto SPH)
www.360impressions.de/Wohnung - shot with a 2,8/15mm Canon fisheye and 5D2 - Panoneed robotic head.
http://www.360impressions.de/MKP_Panorama - shot with a 35mm Nikon lens on a Canon 5D2 - Panoneed robotic head.
http://www.360impressions.de/Wuppertal - first scene: 35mm Nikon lens, second scene 85mm Nikon lens, both on Canon 5D2 - Panoneed robotic head.

It´s NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL between shooting a sphere with a fisheye or with 85mm for example.

So: i fully support Andrew´s advice to use a fisheye for interiors and a manual head.

Of course a robotic head providing xml has several advantages - but the Gigapan definitely isn´t well suited for using fisheyes due to it´s construction.

As you can see: there is no difference regarding distortions between fisheye and rectangular lenses.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Apart from the fact i chose the wrong motorized solution. i think the Autopano software fails using Gigapan import; Just as user i expect a better result using any kind of motorized solution. the software does not use good enough the
constraint of regular grid or the regular angular step.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:04 pm 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
Apart from the fact i chose the wrong motorized solution.

You cannot just set that aside - it's a key reason why you are having the problems you are complaining about. Along with an inappropriate lens choice for this scene.

It's a bit like saying apart from the fact that I have a broken leg why can't I run as fast as Usain Bolt; it must be the track that's the problem.;)

If you have never used a good fullframe fisheye with your NN4 you'd be surprised how easily 360x180 panos 'come together' when shooting with such a setup.

Quote:
i think the Autopano software fails using Gigapan import; Just as user i expect a better result using any kind of motorized solution. the software does not use good enough the constraint of regular grid or the regular angular step.

Perhaps the Gigapan Stitch software will do a better job - did you try it?

_________________
Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:32 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
jorge_hernandez wrote:
Apart from the fact i chose the wrong motorized solution.

You cannot just set that aside - it's a key reason why you are having the problems you are complaining about. Along with an inappropriate lens choice for this scene.

It's a bit like saying apart from the fact that I have a broken leg why can't I run as fast as Usain Bolt; it must be the track that's the problem.;)

> It is not the same, if my start point is, "I got good results using a import form folder using a NN4" (so i run as fast as Usain Bolt); now i got a motorized solution with the same lenses i must have a better result (i must run faster than bolt). But with AutoPano the result is worse.

mediavets wrote:
If you have never used a good fullframe fisheye with your NN4 you'd be surprised how easily 360x180 panos 'come together' when shooting with such a setup.

Quote:
i think the Autopano software fails using Gigapan import; Just as user i expect a better result using any kind of motorized solution. the software does not use good enough the constraint of regular grid or the regular angular step.

Perhaps the Gigapan Stitch software will do a better job - did you try it?

Yes i used, but on top is better than auto pano, but in the horizon is worse.

Jorge


Last edited by jorge_hernandez on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:47 pm 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
mediavets wrote:
jorge_hernandez wrote:
Apart from the fact i chose the wrong motorized solution.

You cannot just set that aside - it's a key reason why you are having the problems you are complaining about. Along with an inappropriate lens choice for this scene.

It's a bit like saying apart from the fact that I have a broken leg why can't I run as fast as Usain Bolt; it must be the track that's the problem.;)

> It is not the same, if my start point is, "I got good results using a import form folder using a NN4" (so i run as fast as Usain Bolt); now i got a motorized solution with the same lenses i must have a better result (i must run faster than bolt). But with AutoPano the result is worse.

You are you really not comparing like with like.

Did you shoot exactly the same pattern with the NN4 as you did with the Gigapan robot? I don't think so; for a start the camera/lens would have been mounted in portrait orientation on the NN4 and landscape orientation on the Giagapan. Yes, it does make a difference to what result you may get.

Considering the image set shot using the Gigapan; you reported that if you use the Gigapan Import wizard the stitch is 'worse' that if you don't. BUT the Gigapn Import filter has enabled the inclusion of the images which were left out when you didn't use it. It's trying to place and handle those additional unlinked images that is making the stitch 'worse'.

You would have none of these problems if you were shooting with a good fullframe fisheye and the NN4.

BTW what camera body are you using?

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Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:52 pm 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Perhaps the Gigapan Stitch software will do a better job - did you try it?

Yes i used, but on top is better than auto pano, but in the horizon is worse.

Jorge

If the Gigapan Stitch software created by the designers of the Gigapan robotic head specifically for their robot cannot produce an acceptable result why did you expect that APG might do better.

In my opinion, the problem is with your choice of equipment for shooting this scene.

However 'smart' the software it cannot always overcome poor or imappropriate shooting technique.

Did you yet try stitching with PTGui Pro? It's reported that sometimes it can handle panos that APG cannot, and vice versa.

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Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:39 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
Did you yet try stitching with PTGui Pro? It's reported that sometimes it can handle panos that APG cannot, and vice versa.

PTGui also can´t do wonders . . . :cool: It needs a correct setup and a correct shooting-strategy. As APG also does.

Definitely indoors there is no "Auto" - shooting in narrow soaces - which indoors usually is - it comes to the very point of precise working.
That means the setup, the shooting and the post processing. No kid´s toys in any way!

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:55 pm 
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Do you know how APG uses regular Grid to stitch against import folder ?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:07 pm 
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jorge_hernandez wrote:
Do you know how APG uses regular Grid to stitch against import folder ?

I don't think APG has any 'knowledge' or 'understanding' of the relative positions of images unless you using one of the Import wizards.

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Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:38 pm 
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From my testing, I see no benefit in using the PW import. It doesn't seem to use the locations from the camera and still tries to stich based on control point detection, so what's the point of the import. The results I've got are no better than regular stitching. Am I missing something? I was under the impression that using PW import (or other XML) would tell the stitching program EXACTLY the position of the images so when you have big areas of sky/water it's not going to have to try and find control points

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Sorry - mark: i mistook you with Jorge . . :cool:

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Hi Klaus

thanks for reply. I'm shooting outdoor panos, just hijacked this thread. I did find a much better tutorial this morning on wiki, so will give it another try. My big problem right now is that I can't render anything. Just stops on blending stage or quits with no error (don't know what stage though)

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:51 pm 
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mark_anderson_us wrote:
My big problem right now is that I can't render anything. Just stops on blending stage or quits with no error (don't know what stage though)

Hey Mark!

What does that mean precisely?

Basically the PW import helps very well - if you use a motorized head writing xml for positioning. For manual heads- which i read in your footnote you have - it´s useless of course.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:02 pm 
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I'm using merlin with papywizard.

I set my pano rendering and ask it produce layers and pano. It created the layers and sits on blending for many hours. never finishes

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Canon EOS 30D with BG-E2 grip
50mm f1.4, 16-35mm f2.8L, 28-70mm f2.8L, 70-200mm f2.8L, 100mm f2.8 Macro
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:36 pm 
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mark_anderson_us wrote:
I'm using merlin with papywizard.

I set my pano rendering and ask it produce layers and pano. It created the layers and sits on blending for many hours. never finishes

Did you try without layers? You mean bracketing-layers?
Usually never had any issue.
What´s your computer hardware?

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:50 pm 
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have core i7 with 8Gb. Didn't try without layers: I need them

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