APG not detecting a 78 images panorama  

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hermer-blr
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APG not detecting a 78 images panorama

by hermer-blr » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:14 pm

Back from my vacations in the USA where I collected a lot of panoramas with my new camera (a Nikon D5100, 16 Mbits, 14 bits/pixel, bracketing), I am now starting to sort my pictures and get panorama previews in order to select the best ones for further accurate processing.

One panorama is 78 images (26 x 3) and APG does not want to detect it. Probably too many images for my modest Windows 32 bits/2 Gbytes configuration.

Has anybody got any idea on how to overcome this problem:
- My aim would be to use exposure fusion in APG : 78 images in APG and wooow ! This is what presently does not work !
- An alternative - that I am somewhat reluctant to follow - would be to preprocess the brackets in Photomatix and reduce the number of images for APG to 26. But, as my pictures are handheld, I cannot warranty that the brackets exactly meet; the output from Photomatix might be 26 images, each of a different size; that may be somewhat embarrassing for APG....
- Other ideas ????

What actually happens with those 78 images:
- Start APG
- Input the 78 images
- "Detect"
* SIFT control point extraction
* Correspondance between control points: runs.... and stops
- Press "Detect" again: nothing happens...


Thanks for your help
Last edited by hermer-blr on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nikon D5100 (formerly Nikon D60) - Sigma 10-20 - 24 shots Panoramas in 3 raws
Windows 32 bits - APG
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by HansKeesom » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:33 pm

Hi,

If you can put all 78 in a zipfile and make them available to me for download, I can have a try and send you the result.

regards,

Hans Keesom
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by hermer-blr » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:39 pm

To Hans:

Thanks for your proposition, but my aim is to be find a reliable process applicable to all the panoramas I have gathered during my vacations. Furthermore, can you imagine how long it would be to download 78 tif images (for the previews, I use low quality jpg; but the definitive stitching will be performed with tif generated from raw files).
Nikon D5100 (formerly Nikon D60) - Sigma 10-20 - 24 shots Panoramas in 3 raws
Windows 32 bits - APG
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by mediavets » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:04 pm

hermer-blr wrote:One panorama is 78 images (26 x 3) and APG does not want to detect it. Probably too many images for my modest Windows 32 bits/2 Gbytes configuration.

Has anybody got any idea on how to overcome this problem:

Hmmmm....perhaps upgrade your system to Windows 7 64-bit and a lot more RAM?

Or as you suggest pre-process the bracketed images before stitching.

Have you previously had any success with stitching handheld bracketed images?

I am presuming that you used bracketing because these are interior panos? In which case I would have thought you might have used relatively long exposure times and doing this handheld too.

If these panos were shot outdoors then I wonder whether you really needed to brcaket the exposures especially if shooting RAW.

What sort of scenes were you shooting that you felt demanded bracketed exposures?
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by hermer-blr » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:02 pm

To Andrew:

1/ Upgrade to 64 bits: not planned (matter of money and time consumption).

2/ I have been shooting bracketed images for the very first time (my previous camera did not allow that). I decided to shoot all my panos this way as a preventive measure against high dynamic range encountered in both sunny and shadowy areas. Those panos are outdoor (I am starting my processing with Bryce Canyon, USA).

3/ Pre-processing with Photomatix: I will try if I have no other choice - No experience - There is, I guess, the risk that all my 26 images will be different in size (due to handheld bracketing): what will be the consequence in APG ?

4/ I know that I also have the choice of only processing the best exposed raw, thus having only 26 images (I just got the panorama preview this way).
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by HansKeesom » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:18 pm

hermer-blr wrote:To Hans:

Thanks for your proposition, but my aim is to be find a reliable process applicable to all the panoramas I have gathered during my vacations. Furthermore, can you imagine how long it would be to download 78 tif images (for the previews, I use low quality jpg; but the definitive stitching will be performed with tif generated from raw files).

Yes I do. I process photos for another photographer. Yesterday she FTP-ed me 250 RAW files, which gave a total of over 2 GB. Took a few hours but as it runs by itself it is fine.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:28 am

hermer-blr wrote:Back from my vacations in the USA where I collected a lot of panoramas with my new camera (a Nikon D5100, 16 Mbits, 14 bits/pixel, bracketing), I am now starting to sort my pictures and get panorama previews in order to select the best ones for further accurate processing.

One panorama is 78 images (26 x 3) and APG does not want to detect it. Probably too many images for my modest Windows 32 bits/2 Gbytes configuration.

Has anybody got any idea on how to overcome this problem:
- My aim would be to use exposure fusion in APG : 78 images in APG and wooow ! This is what presently does not work !
- An alternative - that I am somewhat reluctant to follow - would be to preprocess the brackets in Photomatix and reduce the number of images for APG to 26. But, as my pictures are handheld, I cannot warranty that the brackets exactly meet; the output from Photomatix might be 26 images, each of a different size; that may be somewhat embarrassing for APG....
- Other ideas ????

What actually happens with those 78 images:
- Start APG
- Input the 78 images
- "Detect"
* SIFT control point extraction
* Correspondance between control points: runs.... and stops
- Press "Detect" again: nothing happens...

Thanks for your help

Did i get it right: you shot bracketing handheld? Photomatix provides a function to align images. That works in some cases - but handheld . . give it a try! Depends very much on the way you held the camera steady.
I suggest to use only one image from the brackets for stitching if PM fails to align (for aligning try "align source images" and "by correcting hor and vert shifts" and "crop aligned images").

If you don´t want to upgrade your RAM to min. 4GB at least you might try a fast external disk exclusively as temp for APG. Guess it´s not really cheaper than adding 2GB RAM . . . in fact you ideally need both for working with stitchers.

best and good luck, Klaus
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by AlexandreJ » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:43 am

Solution for small configuration :
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to minimal value. restart autopano
- do the detection, edition but no rendering. Save the .pano
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to maximal value, restart autopano
- open the batch rendering dialog, drag'n'drop the .pano there. Render.

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by hermer-blr » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:17 am

Thanks to both Klaus and Alexandre for their advices. I will start by following the path proposed by Alexandre.

To Klaus:

Windows 32 bits has a memory limitation and cannot handle more than 3 GBytes. Regarding available disk space, I have no constraint and recently bought a 500 Gbytes Hard Disk

My issue with Photomatix is to come with 26 images of different size (due to the fact that I work handheld) and I am wondering what this will give in APG...
Nikon D5100 (formerly Nikon D60) - Sigma 10-20 - 24 shots Panoramas in 3 raws
Windows 32 bits - APG
website htt://jmh.trp.free.fr

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by HansKeesom » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:49 pm

klausesser wrote:
hermer-blr wrote:Back from my vacations in the USA where I collected a lot of panoramas with my new camera (a Nikon D5100, 16 Mbits, 14 bits/pixel, bracketing), I am now starting to sort my pictures and get panorama previews in order to select the best ones for further accurate processing.

One panorama is 78 images (26 x 3) and APG does not want to detect it. Probably too many images for my modest Windows 32 bits/2 Gbytes configuration.

Has anybody got any idea on how to overcome this problem:
- My aim would be to use exposure fusion in APG : 78 images in APG and wooow ! This is what presently does not work !
- An alternative - that I am somewhat reluctant to follow - would be to preprocess the brackets in Photomatix and reduce the number of images for APG to 26. But, as my pictures are handheld, I cannot warranty that the brackets exactly meet; the output from Photomatix might be 26 images, each of a different size; that may be somewhat embarrassing for APG....
- Other ideas ????

What actually happens with those 78 images:
- Start APG
- Input the 78 images
- "Detect"
* SIFT control point extraction
* Correspondance between control points: runs.... and stops
- Press "Detect" again: nothing happens...

Thanks for your help

Did i get it right: you shot bracketing handheld? Photomatix provides a function to align images. That works in some cases - but handheld . . give it a try! Depends very much on the way you held the camera steady.
I suggest to use only one image from the brackets for stitching if PM fails to align (for aligning try "align source images" and "by correcting hor and vert shifts" and "crop aligned images").

If you don´t want to upgrade your RAM to min. 4GB at least you might try a fast external disk exclusively as temp for APG. Guess it´s not really cheaper than adding 2GB RAM . . . in fact you ideally need both for working with stitchers.

best and good luck, Klaus

Looking at the memory prices nowaday it is almost silly not to expand to a nice number of GB s. I have 6 GB and can work fine with them but when you see that 16 GB is now only 140 euro....I just ordered them and put them on the shelf so I have them when I need them :-)
Last edited by HansKeesom on Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by hermer-blr » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:22 pm

To Hans Keesom:

The point is that Windows 32 bits does not accept more than 3 Gbytes of RAM. Upgrading my configuration to Windows 64 would require, beyond the expense, a lot of efforts to transfer all my 32 bits SW suites to 64 bits. Hence, the most effective solution would be to buy a second configuration with Windows 64. Not planned at the moment (I would prefer to invest 700 Euros in a fisheye lens than in a new config.).
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by mediavets » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:17 pm

hermer-blr wrote:I would prefer to invest 700 Euros in a fisheye lens than in a new config..

Which fisheye would you like to have for 700 Euros?
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by hermer-blr » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:15 pm

Nikkor 10.5, available for 680 Euros, delivery not included, on Amazon.fr or 667 Euros, all included, on cameranu.nl). Other sites propose it for less, but I am not sure they are reliable (grey market products without Nikon warranty).
Last edited by hermer-blr on Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:44 pm

hermer-blr wrote:To Hans Keesom:

The point is that Windows 32 bits does not accept more than 3 Gbytes of RAM. Upgrading my configuration to Windows 64 would require, beyond the expense, a lot of efforts to transfer all my 32 bits SW suites to 64 bits. Hence, the most effective solution would be to buy a second configuration with Windows 64. Not planned at the moment (I would prefer to invest 700 Euros in a fisheye lens than in a new config.).

In that case Autopano will profit a lot from having a SSD for tempfile and pagefile. Just hope windows 32 will support SSD :-)

If you can download and install enfuseGUI it will fuse the brackets for you so instead of 3 files you have one, so 78 becames 26. Now Autopano should be better able to digest everything.

Also you might want to convert your RAW-files into compressed tiffs first'wit ha tool like rawtherapee . That is better for quality anyhow. Then fuse them with enfusegui and then load the resulting 26 into autopano.

If that still does not work, reconsider then sending to me
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by hermer-blr » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:32 am

After having (on a smaller panorama) compared APG and Photomatix, I finally reached the conclusion that, for my case of handheld shot panoramas, APG was slightly better than Photomatix.

So, I followed the advice of Alexandre (ie fiddling - as he mentioned - with the memory setting) for my 78 images panorama. And, after 6h50mn of processing, I got a perfect panorama !!! GREAT !!!

Conclusions:
- The exposure fusion mode of APG is PERFECT in term of image quality !!!
- The documentation of workflow B is incomplete: it does not explain how to apply color correction (none? LDR? how to set the anchors, etc...)
- There is a bug in the preview: when you activate the exposure fusion tool, the preview becomes ugly, undecipherable... Hopefully, the rendered panorama is OK !

Note: my panoramas are rendered with the following:
-LDR, apply color corrections by layer, one reference image per layer, correct gamma, color, exposure
- activation of the exposure fusion tool (just before rendering, due to the bug)
- Rendering: Exposure fusion with multiband set to -3.
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by kalain » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:58 am

AlexandreJ wrote:Solution for small configuration :
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to minimal value. restart autopano
- do the detection, edition but no rendering. Save the .pano
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to maximal value, restart autopano
- open the batch rendering dialog, drag'n'drop the .pano there. Render.

Hey, that's not very cool for a software named "AutoPano". :/
Shouldn't be "ManuPano". :lol:
Honestly, who will be happy doing this to stitch a pano !

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by hermer-blr » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:25 am

What is very unpleasant is to have to fight against a software without being able to find a reliable reproducible process. In this situation, I feel happy because I got a process and the process works!

Note that there were 78 images to stitch, that the panorama is 222 MPixels and that my configuration is a modest Windows 32 bits config. with only 2 Gbytes RAM ! All this fiddling would probably not be necessary on a bigger configuration. So, I prefer a working "manupano" to a message explaining that my configuration is not compatible with APG and that I have to change it (such things may happen with COTS software).

Furthermore, I got really impressed by the quality of the result and this also matters as a criterion to use - or not - a software.
Last edited by hermer-blr on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Windows 32 bits - APG
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by mediavets » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:32 am

kalain wrote:
AlexandreJ wrote:Solution for small configuration :
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to minimal value. restart autopano
- do the detection, edition but no rendering. Save the .pano
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to maximal value, restart autopano
- open the batch rendering dialog, drag'n'drop the .pano there. Render.

Hey, that's not very cool for a software named "AutoPano". :/
Shouldn't be "ManuPano". :lol:
Honestly, who will be happy doing this to stitch a pano !

As I understand it, there's a simple solutuion.

A 64-bit OS and a respectable amount of RAM.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by HansKeesom » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:45 am

mediavets wrote:
kalain wrote:
AlexandreJ wrote:Solution for small configuration :
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to minimal value. restart autopano
- do the detection, edition but no rendering. Save the .pano
- general setting, memory setting, put the slider to maximal value, restart autopano
- open the batch rendering dialog, drag'n'drop the .pano there. Render.

Hey, that's not very cool for a software named "AutoPano". :/
Shouldn't be "ManuPano". :lol:
Honestly, who will be happy doing this to stitch a pano !

As I understand it, there's a simple solutuion.

A 64-bit OS and a respectable amount of RAM.

Indeed, it is not unreasonble that when using this kind of software one is expected to have a decent amount of RAM available(see http://www.kolor.com/forum/p87033-2011-08-11-11-53-58#p87033 on what you need). You are dealing with huge amounts of data so either you give Autopano the RAM or you use the settings Alexandre gave above. It shows Autopano can run on almost any machine.

I am now working on a set of 10 panoramas. This will take me a day to finish. However, most of the time Autopano is just doing its work and I am doing other stuff not related to the panoramas.
My actuall time behind the workstation will be about 2 hours while the workstation works for 12 hours*.
Everynow and then I look at the results and based on my experience I will tell Autopano to do certain pano's again with a few different settings.
Hardly ever do I have correct things in Photoshop.

Well that sounds Auto enough for me.

*The fact it takes so much time is due partly to my machine not being that fast, partly to the fact I like to do many reruns searhing for the best results and do these at 100% quality. I should do them on 10% and speed up things, but I am a bit lazy in that.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:54 pm

hermer-blr wrote:To Hans Keesom:

The point is that Windows 32 bits does not accept more than 3 Gbytes of RAM. Upgrading my configuration to Windows 64 would require, beyond the expense, a lot of efforts to transfer all my 32 bits SW suites to 64 bits. Hence, the most effective solution would be to buy a second configuration with Windows 64. Not planned at the moment (I would prefer to invest 700 Euros in a fisheye lens than in a new config.).

Yes the most effective thing will be a second system with a 64 bit system and lots of memory.

But with the settings of Alexandre* you seems to manage without it. It just takes some more time.
To reduce that time a SSD is very likely to help when used as tempfile for autopano and the pagefile of windows. If I were you I would check to see what is possible.

regards,

Hans



* I would not call them fiddling, they are normal settings.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by hermer-blr » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:14 am

To Hans Keesom:

- SSD: I will have a look at it

- run time: I had to rerun the 78 images panorama for further ghost processing. I was surprised, then, to notice that the run time had strongly decreased to 1h50mn. The differences compared to the first run are:
* Some of the images changed from 16 bit TIF to 8 bit PNG
* the memory setting (in edit/parameters/preferences) not set at its maximum anymore (now somewhere between half and 2/3 of the maximum).

I did several rerun and all exhibited a similar run time... My guess is that the memory setting is the cause of this change (I cannot imagine how 5 to 10 8 bit - out of 78 16 bit - images could be the cause of such a drastic change).
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by HansKeesom » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:20 am

Hi,

Glad you found such a reduction in time.
Another tip to reduce time is to render first at 10% to see if it seems to be right, then 50% and then 100%. This has saved me time. Actually, my setup is such that when I tell a group to detect, automaticly a 10% version is rendered. This allows me to press the detect button and go away for a few hours.
Although I must admit sometimes problems only show up in the 100% version and sometimes they disappear
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.


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