[APG 1.6 b1] frustrated  

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HansKeesom
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by HansKeesom » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:18 am

Hi all,

Although I would phrase it differently, I think Alexandre has a legit point here.

Beta's and release candidates are a normal part of software development. They serve a certain purpose and that is to test whether functionality is without errors.

As a commercial user of certain software one has to make his/her own decision whether or not to upgrade. Although a new version may have wonderfull new features, it might also have some quirky things in it that might disrupt your normal workflow. Therefore it is important not to upgrade when doing a commercial project that has a timetable.
I

So we may be very disappointed about a certain version, we are still responsible for our own decision to upgrade to this version.

regards,

Hans
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by gkaefer » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:13 am

Alexandre & Hans,

from this point of view I've to say you're right.
I'll keep the files and wait for version 1.6 final to redo the project.
1.5.2 reinstalled and similar results as with 2.09 version.

on other side I would expect that beta versions do offer new features and bugs will be closed, but not that existing funcionality is suffering.

Georg
Last edited by gkaefer on Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by UK Pano » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:22 pm

Morning all from a wet UK - where did the sun go today??

Wanted to contribute my two pence/cents/dimes (and any other currency!) worth.

I have had the same frustrations as many with the beta versions, both current and historic, but my ethos when testing beta versions at work is to always expect them to deliver improvements in functionality and look to test them to destruction, but not to rely upon them for any main stream production processing.

This is also how I see it with Kolor and the APP/APG/PTP applications.

It is great that we have the opportunity to be included in the Beta and RC testing so that users have the opportunity to try out the advances and assist to identify bugs before delivering a stable final release.

Great that we can incorporate new functionalitty into our pano's but again I think these should always be looked upon as "work in progress" until a stable release is actually delivered.

I like being able to actively contribute in the evolution of these superb tools used for our craft

Mantra for beta and RC should be Test, report and retest again until fixed! but by no means have an expectation that they would work 100%, obviously would be great but just don't expect it :)


Again just my two pence/cents/dimes
Canon 400D / Canon 24-105mm L / Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE / Sigma 10-20mm / Sigma 70-300mm / NN3 & R1 / PS CS2 / LR3 / Enfuse

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by HansKeesom » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:25 pm

Hi Georg,

I absolutely agree with you on your hope on how beta's are and I do think the beta's and RC's of 2.6.0. are disappointing in a number of ways. to I.m.o. it would be wise for Kolor to think hard about how to make transition from any former version to 2.6.0. much smoother for an user then what we have experienced so far with 2.6.0.

Also, certainly with new options and checkmarks, link them with the online help and directly to the right page. Saves us a lot of searching while testing beta's and RC's
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:00 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:Because it's mainly about that : should we wait before releasing something until it has enough stability or should we continue to share as soon as we think you can already play a little with it ? I don't have that answer.

Hi Alex!

On one side it is fine to have the latest developements to see what happens - no question. On the other side it is quite understandable to try to use it right away for doing a "real" project. And here one gets frustrated THOUGH knowing very well it is a beta/RC . . . :cool: Of course it makes no sense at all to be frustrated - but that is human nature . . :P
We all maybe a bit cosseted because APG runs so well even in early states . . . usually.

The point is in the end the documentation - i think it would be better to document new features better than just saying "here they are and they do that". Documenting such complex applications is a kind of art in my eyes. I said it before: i use some very complex applications - FinalCut, Shake, Combustion, AfterEfects, AvidMediaComposer . . just to name a fraction - and none of these apps would be usable without their very detailed and complex documantations.

Doing serious work also needs compatibility! When i want to do projects again which i stitched only one year ago . . do i have to stitch them again from scratch? . . the same is with tours.
With PTP that is very annoying when i have a tour with 25 nodes to do completely new from scratch - which means re-editing ALL kind of behavior the "old" tour has and the client wants with the expanded new tour. That costs HOURS of work extra just to get a result again which already existed . . .

So i guess we need a kind of reliable strategy here - and i suggest everybody not to use beta or rc for real projects . . but only here you can really test them in detail on the other hand . . .

Another suggestion: please test beta and rc versions also on Macs before publishing them . . . . :P:cool:

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by Marmotte06 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:39 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:So perhaps, we should not release any beta to prevent them ? Because it's mainly about that : should we wait before releasing something until it has enough stability or should we continue to share as soon as we think you can already play a little with it ? I don't have that answer.

You have indirectly hit one of the biggest problems: you have published the 2.6 beta before taking the time to stabilitze the 2.5 and to solve all the remaining problems in that version. Doing this, you have more or less forced all the people unhappy with 2.5 to move to 2.6 beta which is even more unstable.
In summary, rather than fixing bugs you are permanently injecting new ones. This is a typical "fuite en avant" where you probably expect that the next version will by miracle fix old problems. If it does you are lucky, if it doesn't everyone complains.

So, you were right to publish a 2.6 beta to let people test it, but you should absolutely keep dev & support resources on the 2.5 to make sure people have at least a stable version to work with while you develop the 2.6.
How many Kolor people are still answering customers of the 2.5 that report or have reported problems ? And don't tell me there are no more problems on 2.5, you have just stopped to log them.

Olivier

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by hub » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:02 am

It is not true Alexandre:
« 
One sidenote : We are the only software editor that you can contact directly through contact form and provide us some example cases so we can help you to stitch them with our software. One guy here is just paid for that. In the 2 last months, all cases proposed were stitchable well with the right workflow, only one was hard because of a wrong shooting setup. »ss

Here, KOLOR did not answer. Letting re-lay GURL, the problem could seemed less important:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11558-da-formations-edition

Ditto here:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11656-da-placement-manuel-d-image-sans-points-de-contra-le

And here:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11754-apg-2.5.1-rc2-mcbookpro-pb-de-blending

I had no clear answer nor obtained your result of the good assembly on my pano photos transferred to KOLOR by FTP:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11667-apg-2.5.1-rc2-mac-antibrouillard-et-gestion-couleur
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11886-apg-2.5.1-rc2,64-bits-macbookpro-multiband

I would have been able to send much more examples of bugs, but would they be interessants for KOLOR? Other between my examples stayed without comment:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/t12031-apg-2.5.2a-mac-mauvaise-interpra-tation-par-antifanta-mes
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t12686-v.2.6.0b1-mac-rendu-defectueux-du-ciel-bleu


So, don't say, that :
« I have my own experience with autopano for which in each version, I really see the improvement : I'm able to process more difficult panoramas in a faster way and I'm happy with that. On the other hand, it seems that some people are having issues with the software and I really want to know where the issues are located to be able to address them. That's as simple as that.
Perhaps everything is just in the problem : "oh, autopano didn't manage to stitch directly and perfectly the panorama : how can I help him ?".
 »

Hub

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AlexandreJ
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by AlexandreJ » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:20 pm

Hub, here's my answer to these threads. I'll copy the answer on the thread too.

* http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11558-da-formations-edition : it's about the GPU preview that is not as accurate as CPU preview, thus, in large field of view rectilinear panorama, straight line are not straight in GPU but they are in CPU mode.
The fact that the optimizer doesn't switch back to 'strong' preset when changing lens model is just a small bug and it doesn't change at all the optimizer end result at all.
BTW : in v2.6, this GPU mode has been improved a little to be more accurate. Still straight lines are still not totally straight in rectilinear mode.

* http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11656-da-placement-manuel-d-image-sans-points-de-contra-le :
That's about manual positionning of image. There is a jump while the progress bar is advancing. We'll try to fix that.
BTW : one good way to be accurate without mouse, select one of several images and use the direction key to move pixel per pixel. It works in CPU and GPU mode.
Issue 834 opened

* http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11754-apg-2.5.1-rc2-mcbookpro-pb-de-blending :
This thread illustrates color correction as well as influence of blending technology.
We covered blender technology here : http://www.autopano.net/wiki-fr/action/view/Nouveaut%C3%A9s_Autopano_2.6
We will cover color anchor usage here ( in French only yet ) : http://www.autopano.net/wiki-fr/action/view/Utiliser_les_ancres_de_correction_de_couleur

* http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11667-apg-2.5.1-rc2-mac-antibrouillard-et-gestion-couleur
This was an issue with lost color profil when using Haze plugins. It was fixed in version 2.5.2.

* http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11886-apg-2.5.1-rc2,64-bits-macbookpro-multiband
This thread was about the new blender. I didn't check these images in full resolution. I'll do that and answer in the corresponding thread.
Issue 835 opened.

* http://www.kolor.com/forum/t12031-apg-2.5.2a-mac-mauvaise-interpra-tation-par-antifanta-mes
About anti-ghost technology. Most of the time, this system does give a good result, but sometimes, it doesn't. This is a case where it doesn't. One reason is that ghost and images edges are too close on the overlapping zone. It can affect the resolution of ghost. No real solution yet besides transparency painting.

* http://www.kolor.com/forum/t12686-v.2.6.0b1-mac-rendu-defectueux-du-ciel-bleu
This is typical of a wrong multiband level setting. I guess there's something not good for this setting on your computer.

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AlexandreJ
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by AlexandreJ » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:38 pm

Guilhem wrote:No answers from Kolor about this topic, no reactions... In five days... Not amazing but... very strange.

Sure, but what I learned about my past experience with quick answering. So no, I wait until
- everyone is calmed down
- I'm back from my holiday :) ( True ! ).

Best

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by AlexandreJ » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:56 pm

Marmotte06 wrote:You have indirectly hit one of the biggest problems: you have published the 2.6 beta before taking the time to stabilitze the 2.5 and to solve all the remaining problems in that version. Doing this, you have more or less forced all the people unhappy with 2.5 to move to 2.6 beta which is even more unstable.
In summary, rather than fixing bugs you are permanently injecting new ones. This is a typical "fuite en avant" where you probably expect that the next version will by miracle fix old problems. If it does you are lucky, if it doesn't everyone complains.
So, you were right to publish a 2.6 beta to let people test it, but you should absolutely keep dev & support resources on the 2.5 to make sure people have at least a stable version to work with while you develop the 2.6.

That's a good point here. But you cannot just not work this way. Just one illustration about the multiband blending issue that were in 2.5 version ( and also in smartblend BTW, I can illustrate that ).
To be able to solve such issue, it's not like correction just a sign in one equation like a fix. It's about changing a huge part of the rendering in several files ( order of operation, quality, approximation, etc ). It's complicated and no just a fix. Such changes often affects a lot of part of the software. We cannot release such fixes in just a minor 2.5.3 version for example without having huge beta / RC release before. That's why each time such huge revamp happens, we need to release it in a new version ( 2.6 ).
Or in 2.6, new feature were planned too, and these features were merged with this huge fix. That's why you ended up with a 2.6 that looks like the one we have.

BTW : 2.5.2 is really stable is most case. The improvement done in multiband will only affect a small series of panorama, perhaps 5% of all panorama, that were not great with the rendering engine 2.5.2 are now good with 2.6.0. That's why we consider the 2.5.2 as really stable and good for production.

Marmotte06 wrote:How many Kolor people are still answering customers of the 2.5 that report or have reported problems ? And don't tell me there are no more problems on 2.5, you have just stopped to log them.

All of them in fact, developers included. It seems that you never used the email support, because you would not have said that if you had. We have a problem logging system here. There are a lot of stuff inside, most of them are feature request, some small bugs still opened and that's it. No big bug left in 2.5.2 stable version, instead it would not have been a stable version.

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by Guilhem » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:17 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:
Guilhem wrote:No answers from Kolor about this topic, no reactions... In five days... Not amazing but... very strange.

Sure, but what I learned about my past experience with quick answering. So no, I wait until
- everyone is calmed down
- I'm back from my holiday :) ( True ! ).

Best

Bonjour Alexandre,

Ce que je trouvais étrange était que vous laissiez dériver ce fil sans intervention pour essayer de calmer les ardeurs des participants.

Sinon, entièrement d'accord sur le fait de prendre son temps avant de répondre. Mais parfois une simple première intervention permet à  tous de voir que sa voix a été entendue (et entendre la voix de chaque intervenant au milieu du brouhaha généré par ce fil ne doit pas être une mince affaire) et qu'une réponse sera apportée.

J'espère que les vacances ont été bonnes et que vous êtes rentrés reposés afin d'avancer encore plus vite et d'aller encore plus loin pour notre plus grand plaisir.

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by HansKeesom » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:14 am

traduction française ci-dessous

To Guilhem and others,

This is a forum and although it is nice the people of KOLOR spent time here to answer questions left and right there is not an SLA* on that.
If you want a SLA regarding answering your questions I propose KOLOR starts a support programm where you can be a gold, silver or bronze member, paying f.e. 5000, 2500, 1000 euro and then can count on defined response time.
Until such programm exist and you are a member of this programm, the software is as it is and the forum a place where users can communicate with each others.

Nope I am not affiliated to KOLOR, but I have worked in 1st line support and know where to draw a line.

regards,

Hans Keesom

Pour Guilhem et d'autres,

Ceci est un forum et bien il est agréable au peuple de Kolor a passé du temps ici pour répondre à  des questions à  gauche et à  droite, il ya pas une * SLA sur ce point.
Si vous voulez un SLA au sujet répondant à  vos questions, je propose KOLOR commence un programm de soutien où vous pouvez être une médaille d'or, d'argent ou de bronze membres, en accordant une fe 5000, 2500, 1000 euros et peut alors compter sur un temps de réponse définis.
Jusqu'à  programm existent et vous êtes un membre de ce programm, le logiciel est tel qu'il est et le forum un endroit où les utilisateurs peuvent communiquer les uns avec les autres.

Nan je ne suis pas affilié à  Kolor, mais j'ai travaillé en 1ère ligne de soutien et de savoir où tracer une ligne.

concerne,

Hans Keesom


*SLA : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_level_agreement
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Marmotte06 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:11 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:Or in 2.6, new feature were planned too, and these features were merged with this huge fix. That's why you ended up with a 2.6 that looks like the one we have.

Hi Alexandre & Team,
I learnt a number of things of my past sw developer carrier, one of the basics is: "Never mix fixes and new features in a same release". So, as Kolor grows you do have to adopt more industrial sw dev processes, and learn how to work on several branches. The one in production, the next minor release, and the nex major release. And, you need to structure your sw in such a way a particular function can be modified, and even significantly modified, with minimum impact on the rest. So, you need to be able to continue fixing the 2.5 while developing the 2.6 and the 3.0. Don't tell me it's impossible, others do it, and that's the best practice in sw development.

AlexandreJ wrote:
Marmotte06 wrote:How many Kolor people are still answering customers of the 2.5 that report or have reported problems ? And don't tell me there are no more problems on 2.5, you have just stopped to log them.

All of them in fact, developers included. It seems that you never used the email support, because you would not have said that if you had. We have a problem logging system here. There are a lot of stuff inside, most of them are feature request, some small bugs still opened and that's it. No big bug left in 2.5.2 stable version, instead it would not have been a stable version.

Well, I reported problems on 2.5 that were not fixed. And no problem # were even assigned. And I am not the only one. As I already said, 2.6 will be the "juge de paix". Either it works and does my "on hold" panos, or I quit.

Olivier, on vacations in Corsica

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by HansKeesom » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:44 pm

Oliver,

Did you post your problems in this forum or did you send them to customer support. There is a big difference in it.

regards,

Hans Kesom
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by klausesser » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:43 am

HansKeesom wrote:Oliver,
Did you post your problems in this forum or did you send them to customer support. There is a big difference in it.

I guess both ways deserve to be handled well . . :cool:

Kolor always did a good job - very good job indeed to be honest. The more complex features get the more difficulties rise. Maybe Oliver is right mentioning smaller steps while fixing items first and implementing
newer features after that - i don´t know, i´m not a SW developer (that´s all magic to me . . and i´m sure it IS kind of magic . . :cool:)

I stitched a set of fisheye images yesterday using Beta2 - perfect after one step of optimization. Fast like hell. Not a single glitch. Was a set of Photomatix-preprocessed bracketings btw.

best, Klaus
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by AlexandreJ » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:36 am

Marmotte06 wrote:I learnt a number of things of my past sw developer carrier, one of the basics is: "Never mix fixes and new features in a same release". So, as Kolor grows you do have to adopt more industrial sw dev processes, and learn how to work on several branches. The one in production, the next minor release, and the nex major release. And, you need to structure your sw in such a way a particular function can be modified, and even significantly modified, with minimum impact on the rest. So, you need to be able to continue fixing the 2.5 while developing the 2.6 and the 3.0. Don't tell me it's impossible, others do it, and that's the best practice in sw development.

Oh, we do that already. We are already working with 3 versions in parallel ( 2.5, 2.6 and 3.0 ).
But it was our choice to mix new features and fix in 2.6 and I clearly stick with this decision.

For the unassigned report, I'll read back your old post to see what I can found that wasn't assigned.
...edit... It wasn't assigned because we weren't able to reproduce the bug. All the HDR rendering done here were good without any staging.

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by imagin360 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:38 am

Hello!

I'm agree with you, APG is not really user friendly now and sometimes not really logical... But i think that it steel the best software at this time to create "360 pictures" (even if after i use an other software to create the virtual tour...).

So peoples who want a nice virtual tour have to learn how to use APG...

Good luck for everyone!

Jean jardillier
http://www.imagin360.fr

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