[APG 1.6 b1] frustrated  

This forum is dedicated to Autopano Pro / Giga bug reports and features discussion.
Please read the posting rules before starting a topic!
User avatar
gkaefer
Member
 
Topic author
Posts: 3549
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 15 posts
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:01 pm
Location: Salzburg
Info

[APG 1.6 b1] frustrated

by gkaefer » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:43 pm

to be honest - I'm very frustrated and disapointed - each new APG version - a little bit more. more option getting more and more complex giving you more and more chance to combine the wrong option (without hint or explanation) giving you finally garbage result.

project, presets workflows which worked for several project - no longer succeed
new additional features and options nobody knows which effect will be waiting looking at the rendered pano
still no complete documentation nore one which can guide you where you can see what happens, which option has to be set with which value and which option options combined to succed...
if you save the project after all optimized (RMS perfect, stitching result perfect) but after reopening the (with guarantee) saved project ALL is gone and the status after initial detection was saved and now loaded
using presets which worked perfect in past (exposue fusion and anti-ghoast) now have an option "Cutting" with suboption "Ghoast removing") per default enabled and see the different result: preview more or less acceptable but render result

but yes one advantage now: the new rendering engine gives you on the fisheye panos the worse rendering result a little bit faster ...

Georg



no avatar
leifs
Member
 
Posts: 648
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Ørsta Norway
Info

by leifs » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:03 pm

I came to APG from Panavue, and I liked the idea of "auto" ! Panavue served me well, but it was not very auto.
Maybe Kolor need to introduce some AI.
I would like to throw my shots into APG, push one button and get a decent result. Which I can refine.
Not a simple request, I know, but when your software is named "Auto"pano it is unfortunate to make it so complex that you have to explore a million option-combinations to get the best result.

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8836
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 64 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:47 pm

gkaefer wrote:to be honest - I'm very frustrated and disapointed - each new APG version - a little bit more. more option getting more and more complex giving you more and more chance to combine the wrong option (without hint or explanation) giving you finally garbage result.

project, presets workflows which worked for several project - no longer succeed
new additional features and options nobody knows which effect will be waiting looking at the rendered pano
still no complete documentation nore one which can guide you where you can see what happens, which option has to be set with which value and which option options combined to succed...
if you save the project after all optimized (RMS perfect, stitching result perfect) but after reopening the (with guarantee) saved project ALL is gone and the status after initial detection was saved and now loaded
using presets which worked perfect in past (exposue fusion and anti-ghoast) now have an option "Cutting" with suboption "Ghoast removing") per default enabled and see the different result: preview more or less acceptable but render result

but yes one advantage now: the new rendering engine gives you on the fisheye panos the worse rendering result a little bit faster ...

I fully agree, sorry!

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
Lionel Laissus
Kolor Team
 
Posts: 181
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:32 pm
Info

by Lionel Laissus » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:11 pm

In one hand you are right and the second hand people wants more features ....
That's a pretty big challenge for us to please everybody in any cases and get a perfect stitch in one click ...

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8836
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 64 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:35 pm

Lionel Laissus wrote:and get a perfect stitch in one click ...

Hi Lionel!

I don´t think it´s possible to gat a one-click funktionality. People misunderstand the item "Auto".
But the problem is that many users simply are not informed how to prepare their images and how to set the application to make "one click" working!

Even people like Georg and me have to struggle hard for hours to understand new features and how to use them. That´s not big fun if you are creating panos commercially . .

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

no avatar
hermer-blr
Member
 
Posts: 237
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 1:01 pm
Location: Near Paris - France
Info

by hermer-blr » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:02 pm

I also support the complaints of the other users. Since 2.5 has been issued, I have requested a comprehensive (comprehensive means complet in French) documentation.

The idea of describing typical workflows was excellent; this idea should however have been developed in a step by step approach, without missing any detail. This is not the case. And having to go through the forum to understand how to apply exposure fusion and hdr workflows is really a bad point ! Furthermore, those workflows do not work very well...

It is also crazy that you have to go through the forum to know the use cases of Ransac and Homographic ! This should be in the documentation.

And the presets that it is advised to modify (-4 to -2) !

I have decided not to test 2.6 until it is officially released. But I had a look at the tutorials. The proposed lens distortion correction is a tool for engineers, not for non scientific users who will not be able to judge which correction they have to apply.

Instead of making APP/APG more complex, you should now devote your time in correcting the bugs, simplifying the use and creating a comprehensive documentation.
Nikon D5100 (formerly Nikon D60) - Sigma 10-20 - 24 shots Panoramas in 3 raws
Windows 32 bits - APG
website htt://jmh.trp.free.fr

no avatar
Marmotte06
Member
 
Posts: 64
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 1:37 pm
Location: St Laurent du Var, France
Info

by Marmotte06 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:24 pm

gkaefer wrote:to be honest - I'm very frustrated and disapointed -
new additional features and options nobody knows which effect will be waiting looking at the rendered pano
Georg

I have the same complaint: I have been happy with APG 2.09 for a while, the default settings were giving good results without headhache.
APG 2.5 started adding new options, new complexity, and most importantly new bugs. I have been trying the HRD workflow with 2.5, 2.5.1, 2.5.2, and it has never worked. I have reported the problems twice in this forum and Kolor didn't even assign an issue #.
Kolor is just keeping on injecting new useless functionalities and new bugs on an unstable code base, this is against all the best practices of sw development.

Kolor: it is time to wake up and fix the bugs. Don't move to v3.0 development till all of them are fixed.
I am now waiting the 2.6 final. If it still doesn't work, I switch to another pano engine.

Olivier

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8836
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 64 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:43 pm

Lionel Laissus wrote:. . . and the second hand people wants more features ....

No - they just want a working application.
What they really want - and NEED - is a documentation which deserves it´s name and understandable features instead of exotic and non-understandable might-work-if-you´re-lucky "features".
That´s not a tool to do WORK with - it mutates to a toy! A nice toy, yes, but a toy. I myself don´t want toying around with APG/PTP - i want (and i need) to do work with it and earn my living.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

no avatar
Destiny
Moderator
 
Posts: 7886
Likes: 6 posts
Liked in: 228 posts
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 pm
Info

by Destiny » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:52 am

Hi.... I will throw my knowledge of APG into the ring... Georg, I think you mean 2.6+, not to worry we get the point....

Personally I think its great of the kolor team to listen and provide more features on demand.. but if these features come with NO information on how to use them, then they become a frustration on how to best use them or when, where and how... What is the point in creating more new features that no one knows how to use....

Rather than spending all this time creating new features, I think the kolor team needs to examine the basic stitching code.. Everyone knows I have done extensive testing but even using my new shooting pattern I cannot get a great result, I get an ok results but never great... or should I say, NEVER AS GOOD AS PTGUI... I really think that PTGui needs to be renamed.. to Auto-PTGui since it WORKS..in auto without all the stuffing around... PTGui is like a tumble drier.. Just check the contents into it and see a great result almost every time... Kolor, this shouldn't be a big challenge... you have been at it for a very long time.. you are smart people... If I were you I would get the basics right before implementing extra stuff that no one really knows how to use, as you designed it to.....

I need to be in charge up there.. No more stuffing about with colour themes, effects and looks, no more extra stuff.!!

Tasks for you.... self appointed Destiny Task Manager....

1.... Get the stitching to stitch right... even in a tumble drier...
2.... Either get rid of the fusing/HDR stuff or make it work!
3.... Ensure ALL documentation is created in all languages before implementing ANY new features...

To be honest, I have moved on and now stitch in PTGui and achieve great results every time... Some of my issues were due to my lack of knowledge.. but my lack of knowledge also extended to PTGui too.. but I did not have to spend weeks and week on trying to get a great result out of my yucky images.. PTGui worked first time!!

Kolor team, I love ptp.. its a great program and I think if developed in the right way it has the potential to be the jewel in the Pano-Tour software world.... I really love using apg too, but it doesn't work very well.... it might for you being the experts and other experts, but am a not an expert... so make it work for me!!! I did not have to be an expert to use PTGui...

Ya, I know.. I am not on your birthday list anymore...:(

Destiny....



Lionel Laissus wrote:In one hand you are right and the second hand people wants more features ....
That's a pretty big challenge for us to please everybody in any cases and get a perfect stitch in one click ...

no avatar
Destiny
Moderator
 
Posts: 7886
Likes: 6 posts
Liked in: 228 posts
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 pm
Info

by Destiny » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:46 am

Just a quick addition to the above.... I actually owned PTGui long before I bought the kolor software... I opened PTGui it and did not like the look of it... The interface is sooo boring.. but my god, its work sooo well.... Just goes to show you cannot judge a product by the look of it.. On the same token, apg and ptp look fantastic.. problem is.. apg doesn't work too well.. Like I said, you cannot judge a product by the look of it... I only really started using PTGui after Vincèn told me to check into the Nodal Ninja forum about any issues I might have with my new NN4 etc.. I was then told that the majority of the people on that forum use PTGui... That got me thinking after I was having so many issues with apg.. The very first set of images I put into PTGui produced a really great pano.. Since then I have put in a heap of effort to try very hard to get apg to achieve the same.. I failed...:( I look forward to the day when I hear on other forums that their preferred stitching program is apg!!..

Destiny....

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:16 pm

To add to this, I processed 11 panorama's last few days of which two would not stitch correctly. Fighting for days with these panoramas.

Just had the first one done by PTGUI........result was much better, although it did not yet solve some issues on the floor, I admit.

I really like autopano, but it should really be auto-pano to me too....
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:51 pm

To make matters worse, just found out version 2.0.9. stitched my trouble pano's directly, one run hit. Pffff, waisted so many hours biting my teeth using version 2.5.2. thinking it is a better version.......
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:40 pm

When speaking of users that want options, please have a look at how PTGUI allows you to create masks....pffff that is really cool, no external tool, straight through the user-interface into the tiff....
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
Destiny
Moderator
 
Posts: 7886
Likes: 6 posts
Liked in: 228 posts
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 pm
Info

by Destiny » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:28 am

Thanks interesting... The fist time I use apg it stitched well.. something went amiss with it since the updates.. perhaps something isn't quite right with the update.. or something is affecting other things.. I have also found that the 2.0.9 never crashed.. but the new versions since seems to.. No idea why.. my Mac never crashes with anything else......

If you to go the the PTGui home page.. oh man it looks crappy... but if you go the kolor home page its beautiful.... well designed and layed out.. Very appealing.. Just goes to show you cannot judge a book by its cover....:/

D...

HansKeesom wrote:To make matters worse, just found out version 2.0.9. stitched my trouble pano's directly, one run hit. Pffff, waisted so many hours biting my teeth using version 2.5.2. thinking it is a better version.......

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:11 am

Destiny,

Follow the money, which customers bring in the money? New or existing customers? How do you attract new customers? By offering a beautifull website and lot's and lot's of fancy options.....
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
Destiny
Moderator
 
Posts: 7886
Likes: 6 posts
Liked in: 228 posts
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 pm
Info

by Destiny » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:52 am

emm.. I would rather have software that worked rather than fancy ... what fancy options..!!!

I really think apg will come good in time.. it has to .... There are too many people who support kolor and the hard work the kolor team put into their products...

As far as I can see.. either shrug off our concerns as only a few with issues.. or fix the issues so everyone benefits.. I guess the only people who will voice comments about their issues are those that use this forum regularly. But, the ones that just buy it and we never hear about might just cast it aside if it doesn't do as they need and say noting and then move on to something else like PTGui without making a fuse about it.. I guess in the end.. it all comes down to sales numbers...

I really don't want much.. Just a nice looking interface so its exciting to use, easy to understand, well documented in the help files and produces a great job... At the moment... The interface is nice but quite hard to really understand, soooo lacking in help information and produces a very random inconstant result very dependent on the way the images are captured.....

Anyway.. that's me done..

Destiny..
Last edited by Destiny on Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

no avatar
brunchto
Member
 
Posts: 62
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Limoges - France
Info

by brunchto » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:53 pm

Hi,

A little bit the same opinion as everybody in this thread. I think that devs have been pushed by some users to handle very heavy panos (gigapixels panos...), needing more and more technical stuff and optimizations and adding to much complexity in the use of app. I had fun with app 1. No more with 2.x series. I think we need more usability and a clear workflow path. App users goes from a user who just want to stitch 6 pics to users making gigapixels panos. Hard to find which functions is really needed by users and where evolutions must go.

Some missing things in app apg:
-The app is obviously amnesic. I don't have 25cameras and 55 lenses. Why app does not memorize parameters from cam/lens? (for ex, with the 17mm use lens correction 3rd order with parameters xxx. Other lens, other param). There could be a bench module where I could put a set of picture and the stiching will be tested with various parameters (stitch againts the differents lens models ...) to get the best stitching.
-why using an anti ghosting with multi parameters which goes wrong if I could just paint the part of the picture I do not want (inside app. Don,t want to mess with tiff, alpha .... Or what ever)
-add an anonymous statistical module to get infos about what users really do with app. To know where to push the devs
and avoiding to go where big mouth pushed you.
-have a visual feedback of rendering parameters. Maybe a real time partial render on a small piece of the pano available when editing rendering options.
Last edited by brunchto on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
[bo]
Member
 
Posts: 1226
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 8:16 am
Location: Bulgaria
Info

by [bo] » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:09 pm

Just wanted to reiterate, that I too miss the "auto" part from the old days. By exposing more and more options in the interface, combined with not good enough defaults, resulted in problems with my workflow, mainly color correction and blending since 2.5.

I don't need comprehensive manual or how-to movies. I want to be able to just drop the TIFFs, adjust the center point and hit render - the way I used to work in v1.4...
Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

User avatar
taf
Member
 
Posts: 2684
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Paaaaaaris !
Info

by taf » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:33 pm

'[bo wrote:']By exposing more and more options in the interface, combined with not good enough defaults, resulted in problems with my workflow, mainly color correction and blending since 2.5.

Idem to me...
2.5 make me crazy with strange results in color correction...
Wish the 2.6 will be better !!!
Look. There's a rhythmic ceremonial ritual coming up !

no avatar
Destiny
Moderator
 
Posts: 7886
Likes: 6 posts
Liked in: 228 posts
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 pm
Info

by Destiny » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:02 am

ok.. .yet more testing... but this time with my manual focusing... yes.. am progressing.... but I need more practice...

So, I took my first set of images as raw, processed them into tifs... and imported the images into apg... My new shooting pattern is 15 down X6 and 60 up X6... I pressed detect and not too bad but not great..!. No bracketed shots, no fused shots since we all know apg does not like them... So I then changed it to high and detected again.. and waited and waited and waited.... lower RMS but the stitching was still only ok'ish.. One thing that confuses me... apg says my focal length is 9.86.. but I am using 10.5 lens.. So I changed it to 10.5 but it made little difference.... I then put it the colour correction, the RMS was a little lower but no real change in the stitching quality... To be honest.. this room of mine is not the best, so most people would accept the results... My fist attempt at manual focus resulted in slightly out of focus images too...

What the hell.. lets check them into the tumble drier of PTGui and see what happens... I did nothing except throw the images into the software.. press stitch and ..... Perfect!... really nice... blending really great, stitching perfect, colour really nice and the focus is a little better too...

Now.. I have to ask the question... PTGui Pro, as far as I can see.. is 150 Euro Including VAT .... but apg is 238 Euro including TAX...

Makes you think doesn't it!!!!

Destiny...

User avatar
[bo]
Member
 
Posts: 1226
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 8:16 am
Location: Bulgaria
Info

by [bo] » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:39 am

Not only that, but PTGUI 9.x includes masking as well - a feature we talked about on these forums years ago! With the passing of time it seems Autopano turns more to the huge giga-panos, robots, shooting automation, but leaves behind the simple several-handheld-shots-in-"auto"-mode panos. Currently I'm using APG for the simple aerial stitches we have to make, because of the multiple-viewpoint model, but I'm going to test a few of those in PTGUI and I really hope it *won't* be as good... for Kolor's sake.
Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

no avatar
hub
Member
 
Posts: 150
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Annecy
Info

by hub » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:18 am

I wish to add, that I'm very frustrated and disappointed too! I stop to use APG for instance, because it doesn't work fine, and because you doesn't care to answer to my french topics.
Hub
Last edited by hub on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

no avatar
Guilhem
Member
 
Posts: 77
Likes: 2 posts
Liked in: 3 posts
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:25 pm
Location: Pointe-Noire / Congo Brazza
Info

by Guilhem » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:11 pm

No answers from Kolor about this topic, no reactions... In five days... Not amazing but... very strange.

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:16 pm

Hub, Who you refer to when you say "you" in "you doesn't care to answer to my french topics". Most people in this part of the forum are english speaking only of not french speaking at least.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
hub
Member
 
Posts: 150
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Annecy
Info

by hub » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:09 pm

By writing "you" I thought of " Kolor ". I hope that Kolore reads our messages.
Hub
Last edited by hub on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests