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 Post subject: VR Drive 2 + Software
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:01 am 
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Hi..

I have owned my VR Drive 2 for over a year now so I thought I would provide some feedback...

To-date I have not had any mechanical issues at all, it still runs as smooth as the day I bought it... If you get to hear the motors I am sure you will be impressed. Its a really solidly built thing, and very easy to set up. I had some issues in understanding how to put update software onto the Box, but I am ok now.. Seitz Roundshot provides a USB, and just yesterday sent a link to update my software again.. They seem to be continuously updating it..

I also have HDR software.. This is just amazing.. With the normal default software you need to provide a pause time between shots, which can take a lot longer to capture the pano... However, the HDR software works it all out so its well worth having.. I have just recently worked many thing out so now am capturing pano's as I would like to see them... but I am always looking to improve on my techniques.... The flexibility of the EVs and quantity of exposures is amazing.. Far beyond my D800 can achieve....

The HDR pano example below I captured the other day.. Its a huge improvement on the first time I captured it, about a year ago.. This was stitched using APG stacks, which to be honest I have had many issues. But thanks to Lionel (Kolor) in providing heaps of tips I can now stitch a nice perfect pano... Don't forget that APG 3.5 will be a BIG improvement on features and stitching... Early next year we should see that released.. Very exciting... :) I also added two single shot EV shot panos.. I love this Antique Centre...

The one thing I became worried about were the cables on my VR Drive.. They can catch if you are not careful on just about anything that sticks out on my tripod, and with the HDR software I have an extra cable.. I finally found a 600mm high-speed USB cable, which is heaps better since most of them are 1m and thick. I wish Seitz supplied a shorter cable option to be honest. However, I have also worked out a fix for this issues.. I first made a strap with Velcro, which worked well but below is a great option.. I have yet to order one but it seems to be the way to go and they are cheap... :)

http://supplyhq.com.au/proddetail.php?p ... to-a-Rifle

I also have the TurnTable software on my VR Drive. BIG TIP, when using this feature.. Unscrew your VR drive head and reverse it.. Oh man.. Silly me, I did not do that so it caused the cables to wrap round the head... I thought it was a crazy thing and not such a good design.. I was a bit embarrassed to discover I needed to reverse the head which was discovered by the great support Urs of Seitz provides.. Now it works wonderfully. I have captured many object and produced some nice 360 object photography.. Here are some links to the results of some of them using different multimedia methods.. You can use the KRPano object software too but that is just for Flash.. No HTML5 yet...
Using my VR Drive for product photography is awesome.. It just does it automatically... .... When you have the head up the right way.. :/

http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/360/clown.html
http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/360G ... klace.html
http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/TopSe ... iewer.html

I have used speed mode software on my VR Drive jus once.. Oh my goodness.. Its so fast.. To be honest, I have not fully tested this feature.. It goes so fast its scary... :rolleyes:

In summing up.. I would say that buying my VR Drive 2 was a great decision.. It takes about 2 minutes to capture a single EV 360x180 pano and depending on how many bracketed shots, for LDR or HDR the time will vary but you can be guaranteed that the fusion will line up..

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:04 am 
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Since the VR Drive HDR software outputs a range of EVs above and beyond the D800 can achieve, its easy to create a nice HDR pano but in all honestly, I much prefer the LDR output using the same images.. ... It then becomes a matter of adding just the right amount of Gamma.. I have tested this on different monitors, some are set to very bright whereas others are set to dark..

I like the Gamma .8 on my Mac but others go for the darker... It would be nice to gain some feedback as to what looks best on others monitor..

This is the Pano Tour using Gamma 1.. I find it can also look different when built as a Tour...
http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/Anti ... entre.html

Destiny..


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:10 pm 
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???

Klaus

P.S.: i think you should re-think the white-balance! And i also ask myself why you didn´t use the bracketing option here:
http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/Anti ... entre.html
to avoid very much washed-out windows and other very bright parts . . . ?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:42 pm 
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They are bracketed Klaus.... 5 bracketed shots actually since this is a very hard area to capture.. Its very dark below and very light high up, partially from the windows with a heaps of bright sunlight...

How many bracketed shot would you have done.. The VR Drive HDR software can be set for many situations so perhaps I am still not doing it right.. Urs from RoundShots seem to think it was nice, he made no mention of WB or washouts.. I do not want the pano image to be too face... But I am happy to improve my technique if its wrong... Perhaps 7 bracketed shot might fix that.. The WB was set to the location.. Everything manual...

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:59 am 
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Destiny wrote:
They are bracketed Klaus.... 5 bracketed shots actually since this is a very hard area to capture.. Its very dark below and very light high up, partially from the windows with a heaps of bright sunlight...

How many bracketed shot would you have done.. The VR Drive HDR software can be set for many situations so perhaps I am still not doing it right.. Urs from RoundShots seem to think it was nice, he made no mention of WB or washouts.. I do not want the pano image to be too face... But I am happy to improve my technique if its wrong... Perhaps 7 bracketed shot might fix that.. The WB was set to the location.. Everything manual...

Destiny...



They don´t look shot bracketed at all . . too washed-out lights, the WB definitely is too "yellowish" - there´s no white in it: not i a paper label nor in a dish nor on the bed. What WB did you set anyway?

The very same look you could have achieved using one RAW exposure instead of brackets.

Th point with bracketing is to choose the optimal "center-exposure" from where it goes brighter and darker. I suggest to forget the Seitz-option for a while and do some training with the camera alone.

You don´t need to use the Seitz-option at all to get THESE kind of results - the camera alone can do it better.

I use the live-view when i shoot bracketed: set the camera to slow-series and bracketing of 5 steps. Then you start the live-view and release the shutter.
The camera shoots all 5 brackets without moving the mirror. This way you haven´t any mirror-shaking.

After being somewhat irritated having no 2-EV-steps anymore like with the 5D2 i got very fast used to do it with RAW instead of bracketing - but that needs SOME training with the converter . . .

I use bracketing of 3 shots or 5 shots @1EV. That´s plenty enough when you hande it correct. Sometimes i use 7 or 9 steps - that´s extremely fine and detailed Tones.
I used the Promote´s or/and my head´s bracketing features very rarely since i started to use the D800 in July.

Here´s a non-pano shot: D800, 20mm Nikon lens, f:8, 5 brackets as RAWs: http://klausesser-interaktiv.de/Ostsee_Dez.jpg

About 6 EV difference between inside and outside.

Klaus


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:19 am 
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The VR Drive does not work that way.. It takes an Average but the new HDR software has other options..

I cannot use the LiveView either since the HDR cable takes that option away.. I tried using 7+ bracketed shot and found it did not make much difference at all... I need to keep in mind the qty of image with my iMac.. 5 is doable..

Perhaps a little yellow but thats by choice due to all the beautiful wood.. I needed it to glow a bit more.. The middle shot is the Average.. The VR Drive HDR software then works out +/- depending on how many shots I ask it to capture.. If its out of the cameras range, it will go into the red..

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:45 am 
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Destiny wrote:
The VR Drive does not work that way.. It takes an Average but the new HDR software has other options..
I cannot use the LiveView either since the HDR cable takes that option away..


That´s not acceptable.

Destiny wrote:
I tried using 7+ bracketed shot and found it did not make much difference at all... I need to keep in mind the qty of image with my iMac.. 5 is doable..

Perhaps a little yellow but thats by choice do to all the wood.. I needed to glow a bit more.. The middle shot is the Average.. The VR Drive HDR software then works out +/- depending on how many shots I ask it to capture.. If its out of the cameras range, it will go into the red..


Destiny - better use the camera´s bracketing options alone and get used to it. You don´t need 7 steps and you definitely don´t need to leave it to the Seitz - the camera does it . . . and going beyond the camera´s options i´d prefer PromoteControl. 5 steps are definitely enough as i can see in your images . . . as long as you handle them with knowledge. THAT´S the point.

If you like make them downloadable and i´ll give it a try.

Klaus


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:23 am 
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On our way to the city by train for the sales to see what we cannot afford... :/ :rolleyes:
I will drop box my images later..

Destiny


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:45 am 
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... I am processing the RAW images to see if it makes a difference.. Painfully slow.. My camera is set to capture the smallest size image too... I need to use APG for fusion and single layer since I need to make sure I can do LivePano... You can use bracketed shots with LivePano but it comes does to blending the video with the image.. So not so good if the fused image does not blend in with the video..

I will have to wait a while to see the results... :(

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:35 am 
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emmm.. One hours later and APG crashes.. I filled in a crash report but I think the issue is my iMac's memory.. Not sure..

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:03 pm 
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I finally managed to render a RAW pano.. Took some time.. It amazes me the difference in image render outputs using APG depending on if the images are JPGs, TIFs or now RAW.. The render in RAW is more realistic, and I think showing that my WB was set right.. However, I hate the nadir.. I am not able to try to get rid of the tripod footprint using the green and red dots since with RAW using my iMac it will just not work.. I do not get this nadir foot print looking like this using JPGs..


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:31 pm 
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I dropped the RAW into PTGui too.. Again the WB looks better using RAW.. It did not take as long as APG to render and the nadir foot print is more ordered.. PTGui quite simply make a great job of stitching a pano. I sure hope APG V3.5 does equally as well or better.. So, what do you think about this one.

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
I need to use APG for fusion and single layer since I need to make sure I can do LivePano...


In terms of bracketing that´s a misunderstanding: use - i suggested it x-times before :cool: - Photomatix or Oloneo for processing the brackets.
THIS PROCESSING has nothing to do with LivePano!!
Then use APG just for stitching the fused shots. Doin that you have MUCH better control of what you do than you have in APG´s fusioning feature.
(and your stitching runs x-times fastet btw.)

Destiny wrote:
You can use bracketed shots with LivePano but it comes does to blending the video with the image.. So not so good if the fused image does not blend in with the video..
I will have to wait a while to see the results... :(


I repeat: do the fusioning BEFORE stitching.

Klaus


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
emmm.. One hours later and APG crashes.. I filled in a crash report but I think the issue is my iMac's memory.. Not sure..

Destiny...



I really don´t understand why you prefer to reject for years now my advises processing your brackets FIRST and stitch THEN . . .

Klaus


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:29 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
So, what do you think about this one.


Still too yellowish - and too bright. No depths in the image.

Maybe it´s your display? Did you calibrate it? I suggest calibrating it to sRGB for web-content.
I bet there´s a sRGB calibration in the Monitor-presets. If not: use the calibration-assistant in the system prefs.

Klaus

PS: the floor makes it a bit greenish. the best way will be to partially use different WBs in the image. That can be done by
processing the brackets BEFORE stitching.

PS2: next time either ask to switch off the Neons or use a Neon-filter or set the WB to "fluorescent" orbetter shoot several different WBs and mix them in the equi in Photoshop.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:55 pm 
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There is a reason for using the bracketed feature in APG.. I ALWAYS have stitching issues with APG if I use pre-processed images.. I get a perfect stitch if I do it a different way in APG as Lionel showed me.. The new release of APG should resolve this issue.. Its been recognised by Kolor that their was an issue.. Stronger algorithms more complex maths has been coded in.. I realise that if I processed the bracketed shots using a 3rd party software is much better and quicker but I am trying to follow a different direction..

I have viewed my images on other monitors and to be honest I do not see what you do.. For this pano I much prefer a little extra yellow to glow the wood. Have you considered its your monitor.. I do not get any issues with any other media. On my iMac its sharp and nice.. No different to the ones in the Mac shop yesterday.. I viewed my pano on it.. I did not see any issues.. When I view the pano on my Samsung, its looks nice too.. Perhaps my eyes are interoperating colours differently. We as humans see colour slightly different to the next person.. Not everyone sees the same colour.. I will fiddle with it to see if I can change the display.... The thing is.. I set my monitor to Mac default.. In the past I have played with the sRGB and found OTHER viewers have not set it to the same Adobe settings.. Its all very well and good setting it using advanced features but.. it's not my view I need to be setting it to, its the viewers of my media.. Most of them keep to factory settings.. Setting a monitor to Adobe sRGB is not really for use with with web media as I understand it to be.. Its more for the setting it to a sRGB so the PRINTED media represents the how it will print.. Often if its not set to represent printed media the creator of the media does not understand why their prints come out different to that of the monitor..

Destiny..


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:33 am 
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Destiny wrote:
There is a reason for using the bracketed feature in APG.. I ALWAYS have stitching issues with APG if I use pre-processed images.. I get a perfect stitch if I do it a different way in APG as Lionel showed me.. The new release of APG should resolve this issue.. Its been recognised by Kolor that their was an issue.. Stronger algorithms more complex maths has been coded in.. I realise that if I processed the bracketed shots using a 3rd party software is much better and quicker but I am trying to follow a different direction..

I have viewed my images on other monitors and to be honest I do not see what you do.. For this pano I much prefer a little extra yellow to glow the wood. Have you considered its your monitor.. I do not get any issues with any other media. On my iMac its sharp and nice.. No different to the ones in the Mac shop yesterday.. I viewed my pano on it.. I did not see any issues.. When I view the pano on my Samsung, its looks nice too.. Perhaps my eyes are interoperating colours differently. We as humans see colour slightly different to the next person.. Not everyone sees the same colour.. I will fiddle with it to see if I can change the display.... The thing is.. I set my monitor to Mac default.. In the past I have played with the sRGB and found OTHER viewers have not set it to the same Adobe settings.. Its all very well and good setting it using advanced features but.. it's not my view I need to be setting it to, its the viewers of my media.. Most of them keep to factory settings.. Setting a monitor to Adobe sRGB is not really for use with with web media as I understand it to be.. Its more for the setting it to a sRGB so the PRINTED media represents the how it will print.. Often if its not set to represent printed media the creator of the media does not understand why their prints come out different to that of the monitor..

Destiny..


I see. But i do not understand what you´re doing failing to get perfect stitches from pre-processed images. There is no realistic reason for that. I myself do it each time and other professionals i know do it also. Not a single one has the issues you are speaking of.
The point is: Photomatix or Oloneo for example provide very much more elaboreated options to edit the way the images are merged to HDR or Fusion than APG provides. And they do it more reliable and reproducable.

Stitching the already processed images then in APG or PTGui makes it MUCH easier for your iMac to handle the them smaller files and makes everything much faster.

Regarding sRGB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB

btw.: which color-space did you set in your D800?
best, Klaus


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:39 am 
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I changed my monitor to advanced settings but did not like the results.. It does make a difference in the viewing of the image but for me, iMac calibrated is nice..

This pano, I removed some of the yellow.. I guess it comes down to each of their own.. I liked the yellow glow with all the wood.. But this one too looks ok... Probably more true to view...

Destiny..


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:18 am 
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I realise you do not get issues Klaus with stitching using pre-processed bracketed images but many others do.. It's been acknowledged by Lionel and Alexandre that there was an issue with APG, which has been resolved... It is now possible to stitch panos and give true meaning to the term "Auto" when using APG 3.5.. Many problematic panos that had issues stitching with APG 307 can now be stitched using APG 3.5 "Out of the box" settings..

To stitch an image using bracketed shots and Hard Links with Fusion set, is excellent.. However, if using the Control Points, this is is pixel related and can cause many issues... The issue I have, using bracketed shots, with my iMac, APG struggles to coup.. The file size of pre-processed bracketed images is far easier to work with and I also have greater control using Photomatix etc, I acknowledge and realise this is the best option. But as I said, these images then have issue for me in APG 307 since I am now back to using Control Points.. Now, in all honestly, with your panos, I have seen errors, not so much when you use a prime lens but you do get missed stitching.. Using a 35mm you would not notice the issues as much and in many cases the issue is greatly lessened.. However, when using a fisheye lens you do get missed stitching too.. I have seen them.. I am sure you will be impressed with APG 3.5... At lot of effort has gone into it over these past few months to resolve issues and allow APG to work "Out of the box"... but still allowing to deal with more complicated issues with the advanced settings..

I am very aware that the image type, i.e... TIF, JPG and RAW etc produce very different results.. More recently I have considered an issue might well be in part, the colour setting of the camera, which confuses APG.. You have a D800 so I will try to find a cause... Pixel based stitching has real issue with APG, this is a fact with 307, more so than with any other version.. I can change the colour of an images and I get different results every time.. Since TIFs, particularly 16bits has far greater dept and data embedded, mostly provides for better results as apposed to a JPG with only 8bits and with less image data.. RAW also seems to be excellent when using Hard Links since all data is present.. But to use RAW this keeps my iMac tied up for over 2 hours..

Destiny..


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:23 am 
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Destiny wrote:
It is now possible to stitch panos and give true meaning to the term "Auto" when using APG 3.5.. Many problematic panos that had issues stitching with APG 307 can now be stitched using APG 3.5 "Out of the box" settings..


Destiny - i don´t know any APG-version 3.5 . . . it doesn´t seem to exist. So i don´t know what you´re talking about. I deal with software which EXISTS - not with software which might come somewhen . . .
What i know - by following your testimonials for a long time now - is that you have one issue after the other . . . but still refuse to follow a simple and real good advise.

I don´t know ANYBODY among my fellow collegues who EVER had issues stitching Photomatix-processed bracketed sets in APG. So - sorry - it´s not the app . . and it wasn´t the app.

Ok - your cup of tea.

I´ll pull out here - we´ve had this conversation several times in the past two years . . and it seems to have lead nowhere.

Klaus


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:40 am 
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I take that you haven't yet seen this.. BTW.. APG and PTP or any other Kolor software is not all about you and what works for you.. Its about facilitating all users needs..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37dJyfUkYmo

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:01 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
APG and PTP or any other Kolor software is not all about you and what works for you.. Its about facilitating all users needs..



Destiny - i´m afraid you don´t understand what i say.

Referring to a software which isn´t out yet is no help for anybody who needs to solve a problem NOW. That´s quite obvious, don´t you think? Stitching pre-processed bracketed sets
ALWAYS works perfectly for me . . and also for all users i know doing it this way (of course i cannot know all of them . . =D :cool: ). So i guess there must be an issue somewhere else.

I´m dealing with real things NOW - not with projections which will be coming somedays . . . like you do.

I report MY experiences - REAL experiences with REALISTIC work. I´m sure users can learn and profit more from REAL experiences but from speculating about future things to come . . . well, not all users of course ;) :cool:

That´s why i´m telling about what i do - it´s not on me telling about other people´s experiences and workflows. What i write i experienced myself and found proof it´s correct.

Conclusion: i´m very well aware of "APG and PTP or any other Kolor software is not all about you and what works for you" - don´t be ridiculous, please - but i can only tell about what i do and how i do it for giving advises to others.

Klaus


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