Roundshot VR vs Rodeon VR ST what's your opinion?

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:46 pm

By the way Morgan,

I'm not angry I just don't like to be called an amateur by someone who askes me a question that is simply not polite, if you give an honnest answer. And I don't have to have worked with a head to know it's virtues, I can read specs very well. I have to since I can't afford to buy #### I don't need. I hope my workaround service you business.

Greets, Ed.

[Morgan]

by Morgan » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:08 pm

Thanks for the explanation Artisan S, you are skillful on that domain, no doubt.


Sincerely.

Morgan

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:08 pm

Hi Marc,

Congrats with the upcomming sale (and the new model)....but what is the problem writing .XML. That should be not to hard to code. A couple of nested for next loops for the body and some lookup tables for the head. And for every focal length and sensor aspect ratio there is but one optimal pattern right (only interfered by HDR steps), so only a single .xml is needed per focal length.

Think about it.....what lenses do you use for spheres or pano's.....fixed once right and there is a finite number of fixed lenses available so also a finite number of .xml files needed for spheres (Pano's is a different matter). No need for full flexibility, that is nice to have, but totally undesired if you think about it.

Greets, Ed.

Last edited by Artisan S. on Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:16 pm

Morgan,

I have to be. Doing things on a shoostring budget (the Euro crisis tanked my business in ICT, leaving me with a lot of dept as bankes in Europe were saved, companies were left to drown) demands creativity. That is why I'm programming my own software in Sketch. That's why I'm developing my own electronics. And of course it is fun doing so.

Greets, Ed.

[PanoMachine]

by PanoMachine » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:37 pm

Hi!

A computer connection is planned - just a timing issue in the realization.
It continues - whatever step by step...

Some days we need more than 24 hours!

News soon,

Marc

www.vr-head.com

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:11 pm

I know Mark,

But with my solution you can skip that firmly. No need for it (though my Arduino based head control of course will have a fully functional USB connector) even custom patterns for panoramas are defined by 5 values, yaw step size, yaw steps, pitch step size, pitch steps, and hdr steps. Those can be stored reproduced at home and entered in some C++ or Python code program to generate the so needed .xml.

As Einstein said "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

So start thinking out of the box Marc it pays.

Greets, Ed.

[PanoMachine]

by PanoMachine » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:22 pm

Hi:

Please send me a PM with more infos, link, pictures etc.
I am a salesman - will forward it to my partner.

Thank you in advance,

Marc

Last edited by PanoMachine on Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:10 pm

I would recommend it even though I have never used one..

Well, Destiny . . . i guess that needs no comment.

Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:08 pm

If it is fast VR spheres you want Morgan, let me give you a piece of sound advice. Do not use a motorised mount at all. Just use a small and relatively cheap mechanical head (does not matter which one, since even a lowly Panosaurus 2.0 will do the trick). Set the camera on HDR if you need to and use Bulb mode on the remote to do the shooting. Without HDR with a Panosaurus I can do a full 360/180 sphere in under 7 seconds. Want prove?

Try this with a Rodeon (maybe in speedmode it could sort of do it) or VR Drive or Panoneed or any motorised head:

http://stomoxys.home.xs4all.nl/MM/Porque%20No.html

Reminder: this is not posed so people are moving all around during my shots.

Head on tripod, camera on head, place, balance, shoot, turn (repeat 6 times), drop vertical, shoot Zenith.....NEXT. Now this may not look WOW, but it sure goes like STONK. In total a 70 Mpixel sphere (with a 16 Mpixel camera a D800 would get about 150 (right Des?). More then big enough for architecture, where downloadtimes need to be short and serverspace usaually is at a premium.

Now you could invest in motorised mounts of course. But remember, profit = money earned - money invested. A Panosaurus will set you back 100 dollars (American made). A Seitz will look cool but it will set you back around 3400 dollars at least a Rodeon will be more expensive. Now when do you profit from these machines. If you like for instance Klaus Esser create high def tours for museums and public institutions.

The accuracy and quality of the stitching are governed not by the precision of the head, but solely by the precision of the placing in relation to the NPP (No Parralax Point) of the camera on the crossbeam. A 1.000.000 dollar head that is precise up to 1/1.000.000 of a degree is useless if the camera is placed .5 mm short of it's NPP, however a 100 dollar head will perform brilliantly if the camera is so that the NPP is exactly in the middle of the sphere. Got that?

Morgan, you sound like you are a little short on experience here, but for people like you I would suggest the following combination:

1) Camera should be the best in the business and the best in the business is undoubtetly a Phase one connected to a IQ180 back.
2) Head should be the best in business and the best in the business is a Clauss no doubt about it, build like a tank and in speedmode blistering fast because is uses it outstanding stability to shoot while moving......great stuff

That will impress every client of yours....but take care of the NPP my boy since even if you have all that #### THAT IS WHAT GOVERNS the quality of your endproduct even a IQ180 can't beat physics (nor can a deep wallet as some people seam to think).

Greets, Ed.

Hi Ed!

Shooting in a very crowded place where people move fast it´s clever to use a manual head. No doubt at all.

But using a motorized head featuring a single-shot mode ist almost the same - one push, one shot - and you can watch and wait for the best time to do the next shot.
The advantage over the manual head: you get xml files for positioning the shots in the editor (even when you use a fisheye you can have issues placing the Zenith correctly)-

Speed-mode on motorized heads in my eyes is pure nonsense - unless you live in AbuDabi or Timbuktu and can use times starting at 1/2000sec and shorter @f8 or 11 for getting pixel-sharp images. You can calculate it easily.
And to be honest: it makes no sense at all buying a camera with 21-36mpx when you´re NOT heading for pixelsharp images . .

The "accuracy and quality of stitching" bases on a combination of perfectly aligned npp AND high precision in moving and positioning the camera - preferably assisted by xml.
"Accuracy and quality" also mean excellent exposed images featuring a wide dynamic-range.

A IQ180 back is a very ice gadget. But it doen´t give you any advantage in terms of panoramashooting justifying it´s enormous price compared to top Nikon- and Canon cameras.

MF is optimal for single shots when you need first-class images which can be done ony by a single shot/exposure.

For people-, fashionshots i almost exclusively use MF. But not for panos.

best, Klaus

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:25 pm

Shooting in a very crowded place where people move fast it´s clever to use a manual head. No doubt at all.

But using a motorized head featuring a single-shot mode ist almost the same - one push, one shot - and you can watch and wait for the best time to do the next shot.
The advantage over the manual head: you get xml files for positioning the shots in the editor (even when you use a fisheye you can have issues placing the Zenith correctly)-

Speed-mode on motorized heads in my eyes is pure nonsense - unless you live in AbuDabi or Timbuktu and can use times starting at 1/2000sec and shorter @f8 or 11 for getting pixel-sharp images. You can calculate it easily.
And to be honest: it makes no sense at all buying a camera with 21-36mpx when you´re NOT heading for pixelsharp images . .

The "accuracy and quality of stitching" bases on a combination of perfectly aligned npp AND high precision in moving and positioning the camera - preferably assisted by xml.
"Accuracy and quality" also mean excellent exposed images featuring a wide dynamic-range.

A IQ180 back is a very ice gadget. But it doen´t give you any advantage in terms of panoramashooting justifying it´s enormous price compared to top Nikon- and Canon cameras.

MF is optimal for single shots when you need first-class images which can be done ony by a single shot/exposure.

For people-, fashionshots i almost exclusively use MF. But not for panos.

best, Klaus

Could not agree more (the remark about the IQ180 and the speed mode was a bit of irony, which you have missed (lost in translation by you or me I guess)). But Zenith issues I never had I must say, Nadir issues sometimes especially using tiles and Autopano Pro 2.6 but PTGui stitches those without a glitsch and I have no clue why. BTW, as I explained I use an .xml even when using a manual had. If you don't get it fake it, right.

Indeed a manual mode will be part of my motorized head as well. Just swing the camera and await for my manual "click" and go command, ideal for keeping crowded places people free, you can even shoot several shots at the same position and shuttertime and cut out the unwanted souls using photoshop (and a bit of luck) before uploading into Autopano.

Greets, Ed.

P.S. stop bickering on poor, ol' Des .....she means well indeed.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:40 pm

As Einstein said "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

I doubt Einstein did say that about panorama-heads . . . :cool:

As a matter of fact they NEED to be heavy and big. Heavy for avoiding vibrations and instability and big for having the vertical arm of a certain length to provide a small Nadir and for providing strong motors and gears - and accus providing reliably about 3000 moves and shots with one charge.

Of course that is related to multi-row heads and for being able to use heavy lenses/cameras on them.

Beyond that there are some extremely helpful features which you suprisingly can´t find in *most* of the available heads actually . . . :cool:

Like vibration-sensors (which avoids blurred images caused by vibrations from tripod, ground, mirror-shake and so. The sensors let the camera only shoot when the vibration is gone.
Like synchronizing camera and controller in a way the camera tells the controller when it finished a sequence so that the controller can move to the next position.
This is compatible with PromoteControl´s and MagicLantern´s widely expanded bracketing and time-lapse features.
Some folks from the US and from Australia as well as from Norway ordered a special, individual adapted version of the . . . . head and the controller recently - and are very excited having got it fast and reliably from the developer.
Another very helpful item is the electronic leveller on the controller´s touch-screen - imagine you have the head some meters high on a pole: how would you level the head when you can´t see the bubble-leveller on it?
Having the controller on the ground and seeing the "bubble" on the screen you can level it from there.

This are features born from practical use during all developing stages - i tested all features in REAL production situations. That´s a bit different from "knowing" features from the papers or from the manufacturer´s site . . . but never having used them in real at all.

:cool:

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:57 pm

P.S. stop bickering on poor, ol' Des .....she means well indeed.

I don´t "bicker" at all! That´s a misinterpretation, Ed.
I´m just open-minded.


best, Klaus

(there was a prussian general two hundred years ago - he spoke:
"it´s not my enemies i´m afraid of - it´s the people who mean well to me!" )

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:06 pm

As Einstein said "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

I doubt Einstein did say that about panorama-heads . . . :cool:

As a matter of fact they NEED to be heavy and big. Heavy for avoiding vibrations and instability and big for having the vertical arm of a certain length to provide a small Nadir and for providing strong motors and gears - and accus providing reliably about 3000 moves and shots with one charge.

Of course that is related to multi-row heads and for being able to use heavy lenses/cameras on them.

Beyond that there are some extremely helpful features which you suprisingly can´t find in *most* of the available heads actually . . . :cool:

Like vibration-sensors (which avoids blurred images caused by vibrations from tripod, ground, mirror-shake and so. The sensors let the camera only shoot when the vibration is gone.
Like synchronizing camera and controller in a way the camera tells the controller when it finished a sequence so that the controller can move to the next position.
This is compatible with PromoteControl´s and MagicLantern´s widely expanded bracketing and time-lapse features.
Some folks from the US and from Australia as well as from Norway ordered a special, individual adapted version of the . . . . head and the controller recently - and are very excited having got it fast and reliably from the developer.
Another very helpful item is the electronic leveller on the controller´s touch-screen - imagine you have the head some meters high on a pole: how would you level the head when you can´t see the bubble-leveller on it?
Having the controller on the ground and seeing the "bubble" on the screen you can level it from there.

This are features born from practical use during all developing stages - i tested all features in REAL production situations. That´s a bit different from "knowing" features from the papers or from the manufacturer´s site . . . but never having used them in real at all.

:cool:

best, Klaus

All excellent features.

So why after all this time is there still not a good web site to explain and promote the Panoneed and its feature set?

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:23 pm

All excellent features.

Right!

So why after all this time is there still not a good web site to explain and promote the Panoneed and its feature set?

Good question: now the head is ready . . . my time is limited.

I started a site for Josef here: www.panoneed.com - it´s in a layout-state

Will take some time for translation and going into details, making some short videos, gathering in-use videos from customers as well,
and some.

It´s on the go.

Josef has more orders than he can roll out at the moment - maybe there will be a wait-time of some weeks.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:49 pm

Thanks, for all the sound advice Klaus, I've added a electronic spirit level, a motion detector (already have one in my prototyping kit) and camera to controler link (hardest to do have to be able to translate "Canon-lingo" to Arduino speak) to my list of future features, not a problem at all more then enough spare inputs on the Ardiuno (UNO and their is also the mighty Mega) and well add another for next loop to the stack.....easy enough. *** a matter of fact, when I'm finished an the code is in the world (probably I build open source code since the profit pudding of a head is not in the software or the electronics anyway that is in the hardware). By the way shutterdelay is allready accounted for. Simple case of arithmatic.

Hight of the bracket is important indeed the higher the bracket the smaller the nadir that is a fact that even Einstein can't calculate out of existence. But that is only true if you go for spheres if you don't you don't need the bracket hight (in fact even Gigapan has lengthened arms these days and thus has smelled the coffee).

But after all the smoke has cleared lighter and less powerfull can also be a selling point Klaus (look at the sales of the Gigapen Epic and Epic 100), now there is a market for these machines (and think of the excellent MiniPanoBot, which vailliant efforts even got your esteemed approval). If you improved some design aspects on that and brought it to market the MiniPanoBot would be a winner.

By the way Klaus, vibration and weight are not neccesarily related. What you need is a well balanced machine. A 800 mm lens with a D4 on a lightweight head won't work, but a featherlight OM-D with a heavy head is not balanced either (it the mass and the impuls of the head that will cause the problems). The trick is to control the acceleration and the decelleration of the robot (that is old skool robotics Klaus). Now I'm using a special library in Sketch with which I hope to be able to control these. Based on the weight and heft of the camera. I've seen homebuild heads that move very "jerky" and that is of course deadly for precision photography. I have MaxAccel and MaxDecel parameters and will have a speedcurve (if I can get it to work of course) that accelerates and decelerates according to a set of parameters. Remember my Arduino controler is free programmable so in theory I (or you since Sketch is no rocket sience (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxFvpzAR4OI )) could write a custom program for each camera and lens combination.

Greets, Ed.

P.S. for (count=0,count=100,count++) {lcd.print("Klaus is not bickering he's open minded");}

Last edited by Artisan S. on Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:44 pm

By the way Klaus, vibration and weight are not neccesarily related.

Of course not, Ed. But combining appropriate materials and clever constructional details definitely helps!

What you need is a well balanced machine.

Like it is with every machine - and not only with machines . .

The trick is to control the acceleration and the decelleration of the robot (that is old skool robotics Klaus).

This is obvious - naturally. The "trick" is to achieve high precision while combining speed, smoothness of movement and precise positioning.
That means very strong but also precise motors and gears being highly controlled at first hand. Mechanical AND by electrical.
For precise stitches you also might prefer pecise xml files.

You know: nobody really needs a motorized head for doing average spheres or mosaics.

But doing somewhat more complex work - which point i guess every panographer reaches sooner or later - a motorized head providing xml is a natural evolution.

. . or you since Sketch is no rocket sience . . . . could write a custom program for each camera and lens combination.

I definitely prefer to leave such things to highly skilled professional engineers - which i am not!

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:02 pm

Ah Klaus,

I don't believe you, in your heart you'r also a hidden tinkerer (arn't all panorama dudes and dudesses tinkerers at heart) . By the way in my experience even manuals head can do great stitches if you invest in rigourous work ethics (keep in control all the time) and fake the .XML. Autopano Pro has some build in tollerances Klaus. But having said that providing .XML is not that much of problem either. Only storing is but in theory I could use a micro SD card to write on but that would mean a Arduino Mega since I would need more connectors then the 13 to 16 my standard Arduino one provides. And hey, work in progress Klaus, next step is gaining control over the hardware, and for that the hardware first has to negotiate Dutch custom officers (which are of course are all nice hard working civil cervants, say hurrah for the Dutch custom services) and then has to be screwed together, Rome wasn't build on a day and neither was Düsseldorf.

Greets, Ed.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:24 pm

Ah Klaus,
I don't believe you, in your heart you'r also a hidden tinkerer (arn't all panorama dudes and dudesses tinkerers at heart)

.

yeah - i agree!

By the way in my experience even manuals head can do great stitches if you invest in rigourous work ethics (keep in control all the time)

Yes - Julian Kalmar prooved it impressively: http://photoartkalmar.com/Photoart%20Kalmar%20high%20res/Gigapixel/Vienna%2050%20Gigapixel/Donauturm.html

Autopano Pro has some build in tollerances Klaus.

Yes - definitely. More than PTGui.

Rome wasn't build on a day . . .

Right - and all roads end there . . .

best, Klaus

[gddxb]

by gddxb » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:08 am

A IQ180 back is a very ice gadget. But it doen´t give you any advantage in terms of panoramashooting justifying it´s enormous price compared to top Nikon- and Canon cameras.

You don't think being able to shoot the same res pano with less than half the number of shots it would take a D800, or less than a third of the number of shots it would take a 5D Mk II is an advantage?

MF is optimal for single shots when you need first-class images which can be done ony by a single shot/exposure.

For people-, fashionshots i almost exclusively use MF. But not for panos.

Medium format is optimal when you want first-class images. Period.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:26 pm

Medium format is optimal when you want first-class images. Period.

Right. That´s why i preferably use a Hasselblad H4/50 for shooting advertising jobs . I sometimes - but rarely - also use it for panos.

But for someone who shoots mainly panos non-commercially - which i guess most users in this forum do - the advantage in no way justifies x-times the price for a D800. Period.

For professional/commercial producers the value of time-saving as well as gadget-prices have different meanings than for non-commercial shooting panographers.

Gigapixel-spheres above 4 GPx are of very low interest in advertising. I shoot a 4GPx comfortably fast using a 5D2 on Panoneed head - i don´t need to be faster than that. Using the H4 it´s of course faster - but not THAT much faster that i would buy a MF just for THIS.

best, Klaus