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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:54 am 
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HansKeesom wrote:
When there is a pattern on the floor like a logo, can you do that with retouching? Seem to me you copy something into the nadir that is not exactly what was actually there.

As i wrote several times: if i NEED to do it - i do it . . . OF COURSE. But it´s very rarely really needed.

HansKeesom wrote:
a second identical sphere? why, how what?

Hans, you seem to miss some "rafinesse" in panoshooting . . ;)

Think about you need to do a transition day/night: you need two identical spheres from the same spot with a time-gap of some hours.
I learned - after having made the mistake to unmount my rig for another shot and replaced it for doing thej night-sphere - that it´s much better
to let the setup on the spot and wait for "the moment". But that needs precisely reproducable shootings when you do it hires and with 7 step bracketing.
Think about you need to focus-stack 3 or 4 focus-steps: you need to so a sphere 3 or 4 times using different focus-settings.
Think about you need to catch 4 different times of a day using 7 step-bracketing for each situation for doing a hires composing. You need to shoot 4 identical
spheres with 7 steps bracketing each . . . this rapidly sum up to about 700-1000 shots. Are you the one who can do it manually? I´m not - i´d forget dozens of shots in between . . :cool:

HansKeesom wrote:
xml? Why? I have my pattern written down on paper and APG had no problem detecting it, even though there was a white wall.

It´s very easy pattern-wise shooting spheres: each time the same pattern. But what about shooting mosaics? Starting up left and ending down right? Using 399mm now and 600mm an hour later? Many sky-images? Forget it without xml - would takes days to place them predisely enough to get a good stitch.

How would you generate a pattern for that?

HansKeesom wrote:
Making the nadir shots took 3 minutes. So total work problably closer to 10 minutes.

Using which focal-length? 50mm? I definitely doubt it´s done in 10 min total if you need to be precise. And definitely not i all situations.
You can do it shooting rather simple sujets. But what when you need to have the camera looking straight down from a balcony? How will you shoot a Nadir when the camera sits 20cm right above the railing on a 30° tilted tripod? NO WAY! :cool:

HansKeesom wrote:
You don't NEED to use a motorised head! You CHOOSE to use a motorised head or not.

For what *I* do *I* definitely NEED a motorized head. I rather rarely do simple shootings.
Try to use a manual head on 3,50m with a 35 or 85mm lens.. . . you´ll fail. You´ll even have big problems doing it with a fisheye and 7 steps bracketing!
Try to use a manual head with 35mm reaching over a railing to have a straight downlook from a building. And so on.

See: all that´s kid´s-toy doing it with a fisheye. I shot from a skyscraper in 2006 by mounting the camera with a fisheye on a boom which was positioned 3m high and @45° over the railing to have a steep downlook-angle because we were not allowed to place the camera byond the railing for safety reasons.

HansKeesom wrote:
If I would, I would go for the moonslide, which is the only motorized head I know that can make nadir shots http://www.marc-kairies.de/english/mk-panomachine-moonslide/index.html examples have perfect nadir.

:D - wait some weeks and be surprised :cool:

HansKeesom wrote:
Test was done indoors in a rather messy living room. Rather not show that.

Aha? I don´t care for messy rooms. I care for examples.

HansKeesom wrote:
As I said, I want to do a test in a more convincing situation. hope to show that, though I am not sure if anyone will be convinced by that either.
At the same time, I don't think I can nor care about convincing people. When it works for me and the people I work with, that is good enough

Look, Hans:
this whole thing isn´t about "convincing" somebody or not. I´m on this theme because i think it´s important to dicuss techniques for finding appropriate solutions.

You don´t need to "convince" me - i very well know what i do and what i need after 35 years being a professional photographer.
And i don´t need or want to "convince" you at all - you´re not a professional/commercial photographer. And that´s the reason you easily can do work without
to care about anything which i MUST care about.

Doing panoramas for me means to earn money and make a part of my living parallel to "usual" photography for advertising. That means to need a shooting- and postproduction workflow which fits ALL possible situations.

After using a manual - and custom-modified to my needs - Manfrotto head which i can work very fast and precise with using fisheyes (and which allows to turn the vertical arm outside for shooting a Nadir in seconds since 2008 btw.) i realized that a motorized head providing xml gives me more possible ways to shoot, more stability with heavy cameras/lenses, let me work faster and much more reliable/reproducable and some more aspects.

OF COURSE nobody NEEDS a motorized head for quikly shooting fisheye-panos of 6 or 7 shots for average real-estate or other simple situations. THAT`S not the point in our discussion.

So in the end my conclusion still is: i shoot Nadirs very rarely and prefer to retouch them instead because in MY shooting-process it´s very complicated, too time-consuming or simply impossible to do Nadir-shoots.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:20 am 
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This discussion was about finding the best technique for small spaces with a 5DMKiii. An now you are talking about 399 and 600 mm lenses, making day and night version and having a camera the camera sit 20cm right above the railing on a 30° tilted tripod.
Klaus, you are a master in finding extreme situations that have nothing to with what the main discussion is about. It feels like an attempt to prove your point no matter what. Also you keep pulling the card of you being a 'professional photographer for 35 years' to tell others to silence. Meanwhile you seem to have a lot of time on your hand...no customers?

"OF COURSE nobody NEEDS a motorized head for quikly shooting fisheye-panos of 6 or 7 shots for average real-estate or other simple situations. THAT`S not the point in our discussion.
"
As this discussing was about small spaces I am glad you said this yourself. So the conclusion is that small spaces can be done with a manual head and the nadir shots can be made by adding something to turn around the vertical arm and APG is well able to make a perfect nadir out of that materiall.

Back to business know, euro's to be made ;-)

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:29 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
This discussion was about finding the best technique for small spaces with a 5DMKiii. An now you are talking about 399 and 600 mm lenses, making day and night version and having a camera the camera sit 20cm right above the railing on a 30° tilted tripod.

You forget WHY we came to that point, my friend: you globally stated there´s no need for motorized heads providing xml!

HansKeesom wrote:
Klaus, you are a master in finding extreme situations that have nothing to with what the main discussion is about. It feels like an attempt to prove your point no matter what. Also you keep pulling the card of you being a 'professional photographer for 35 years' to tell others to silence. Meanwhile you seem to have a lot of time on your hand...no customers?

What you call "extreme situations" is daily work for me and others.

"OF COURSE nobody NEEDS a motorized head for quikly shooting fisheye-panos of 6 or 7 shots for average real-estate or other simple situations. THAT`S not the point in our discussion.
"
HansKeesom wrote:
So the conclusion is that small spaces can be done with a manual head

I never and nowhere doubted this!! Besides: ALL spaces can be done using a manual head - but . . ;):cool:

HansKeesom wrote:
and the nadir shots can be made by adding something to turn around the vertical arm and APG is well able to make a perfect nadir out of that materiall.

Shooting in narrow spaces i doubt THAT much. I had many situations in bathroom where i never would have been able to pull the tripod aside for shooting a Nadir and even without pulling it aside wouldn´t even shoot a Nadir by just swinging around the vertcal arm.

So what i mean after all: your statements are too globally stated! I prefer making statements more detailed - regarding many possible situations which users might encounter.

Btw. . . as i said: i had the vertical arm on my Manfrotto SPH back in 2008 changed to a version i can swing around 180° for shooting a Nadir from "outside" the rig.
Each skilled precision mechanic can do that. No need for those rather fragile looking constructions i saw . . . . ;):cool:


best, Klaus

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Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:37 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
It feels like an attempt to prove your point no matter what. Also you keep pulling the card of you being a 'professional photographer for 35 years' to tell others to silence. Meanwhile you seem to have a lot of time on your hand...no customers?

You seem to think offending me in this distressing and most amateurish way might be a preferable way to argue?

Klaus

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Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:06 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
It feels like an attempt to prove your point no matter what. Also you keep pulling the card of you being a 'professional photographer for 35 years' to tell others to silence. Meanwhile you seem to have a lot of time on your hand...no customers?

You seem to think offending me in this distressing and most amateurish way might be a preferable way to argue?

Klaus

I simple stated my feeling about the way you debate and the frequency. Me having the feeling is a fact but it does not mean the feeling is true/a fact on its own.

You can write down what you think what I think about my style of course. I don't looking for offending anybody but I also refuse to avoid every small possible to offend someone. Some just have long toes.

Meanwhile everyone can decide for themselves whether xml and 600 mm have are part of the best technique for small spaces and NADIR.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:26 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
Also you keep pulling the card of you being a 'professional photographer for 35 years' to tell others to silence.

THIS is just bad style - which makes quite obvious you have no arguments which can withstand facts.

HansKeesom wrote:
Meanwhile you seem to have a lot of time on your hand...no customers?

THIS clearly IS a - ridiculously amateurish and speculative - offense. How i handle my time definitely is not your concern.

It´s always a pity when people start personally offending an argumental opponent. And it´s not the first time you
do so.

That´s why i now definitely end ALL kind of disussions with you, Hans.

Klaus

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Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel


Last edited by klausesser on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Ok guys.. wow, things have heated up in here. Back on track.
Thanks for all your responses. Im a step closer now and really appreciate your help.
I have started using a Nadir Adapter on my NN5. I seem to be having a problem with patching the Nadir so I checked for overlap and discovered the attached.
I'm guessing the problem is caused by the rotator lock intersecting with my tripod? If so, any advice how to avoid this?
Thanks again

Image


Last edited by oreo5000 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:20 am 
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oreo5000 wrote:
Ok guys.. wow, things have heated up in here. Back on track.
Thanks for all your responses. Im a step closer now and really appreciate your help.
I have started using a Nadir Adapter on my NN5. I seem to be having a problem with patching the Nadir so I checked for overlap and discovered the attached.
I'm guessing the problem is caused by the rotator lock intersecting with my tripod? If so, any advice how to avoid this?
Thanks again

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12865229/_M9B4564.jpg

Just make a few more shots from different sides. Don't do the shot straight down with the rotator in sight. You want to make a shot of what is underneath, that is where the NN nadir adapter cames in.


Shooting a nadir is like four friends standing together around a well with a very small diameter and all want to look down into the hole, to see what is on the bottom. They want to lean over and look down but can't because the other three also want to put their heads above the hole also. So they have to take turns. The NN nadir adapter turns your setup into a friend leaning over. Just go around the well and make a picture of what each of these friends will see when getting his/her turn.

Send us/me the results so we can tell if you can do anything better.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Thanks Hans,
Sorry if I didn't make it clear but this is obviously two frames overlayed in photoshop. One straight down and then the other with the adapter swung out and the tripod pulled out of the way.
I was under the impression (based on this forum discussion here: http://www.nodalninja.com/forum/showthread.php?3994-Nadir-Adapter and this tutorial here: http://www.dlsphoto.net/Tutorials/NadirPatch2/index.htm) that two frames was sufficient to patch the Nadir, is this incorrect? Do I need to take four frames as you suggested?
Thanks again


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:57 pm 
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oreo5000 wrote:
Thanks Hans,
Sorry if I didn't make it clear but this is obviously two frames overlayed in photoshop. One straight down and then the other with the adapter swung out and the tripod pulled out of the way.
I was under the impression (based on this forum discussion here: http://www.nodalninja.com/forum/showthread.php?3994-Nadir-Adapter and this tutorial here: http://www.dlsphoto.net/Tutorials/NadirPatch2/index.htm) that two frames was sufficient to patch the Nadir, is this incorrect? Do I need to take four frames as you suggested?
Thanks again

The links you refer to are not my responsibility. I will not say they are incorrect, I just do things differently and I am happy with it.

The nodalninja example were problably shot with shorter tripod legs and longer middle console.

The masking in the second example is done in PTGUI. I have a PTGUI license but do not use it. I prefer to have my photographers make a few extra nadir shots (with the adapter swung out) then having to fiddle around in PTGui or Photoshop.

Can you dropbox the photos to me and let me try? If they overlap part of the floor I can only fix it in Photoshop by copying another part of the floor onto it. The 'disadvantage' then is you do not see what was really on that part of the floor.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Thanks Hans.
So how would you go about capturing the nadir, 4 frames with the adapter swung out from 4 places?
Could you explain for me how I would fix the nadir in APG? I only know how to do it in PTgui.

I'm trying to avoid cloning anything and ensuring I capturing what is atually there so I will shoot it again with more frames for the nadir if you think this is the only way to cover it? I'll send you those frames if it is still an issue.

Thanks again


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:18 pm 
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oreo5000 wrote:
Thanks Hans.
So how would you go about capturing the nadir, 4 frames with the adapter swung out from 4 places?
Could you explain for me how I would fix the nadir in APG? I only know how to do it in PTgui.

I'm trying to avoid cloning anything and ensuring I capturing what is atually there so I will shoot it again with more frames for the nadir if you think this is the only way to cover it? I'll send you those frames if it is still an issue.

Thanks again

see message #84, the four friends standing around a hole in the ground...

APG will do most of it from there, some markers red and green should do the rest. If not, dropbox them to me, takes me les then 15 minutes when shot correctly.

_________________
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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