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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Hi @all!

some new - and very clever - features caused a delay for the final release of the Panoneed head.

1) the user now can choose to start with the upper rows or the lower rows.
This is essential when you have moving clouds or other moving items. I realized that when i shot on a construction-site with several moving cranes.

2) the horizontal motor/gear allows the use at a 90° mounting on a boom - the camera rotates vertically instead of horizontally as usual.
Because of the resulting level-force of such mounting Josef decided to add the selectable 4Nm mode - which is already established for the vertical move with very heavy lenses -
for this special purpose also. This way you can move the camera beyond the rim of a building and rotate vertically for having straight downlooks.

3) we´re testing the speed-mode intensively to find the optimal speed related to the used focal-length and the kind of the used camera - not every camera is fast enough to shoot many
RAWs continuously. Besides of that the memory-card also has to be fast enough for RAW-mode.

4) Josef is adding some more features to the TC controller - without letting it become complicated and having dozens of pages. Straight and most effective is the goal.

The head in sphere-mode of course calculates the amount of shots at upper- and lower rows in relation to middle-rows. It works very fine with just 20% overlap.

I´m working with the first serial head for some months now - it´s ultra rigid, stable and very precise. Josef is hard to satisfy - so he constantly refines the head and controller while keeping the price
constant.

This week the HomePage of Panoneed is expected to be released.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:12 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
The head in sphere-mode of course calculates the amount of shots at upper- and lower rows in relation to middle-rows. It works very fine with just 20% overlap.

Might it be possible in future to add the ability to use custom shooting patterns - like the custom presets for Papywizard?

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:19 am 
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mediavets wrote:
Might it be possible in future to add the ability to use custom shooting patterns - like the custom presets for Papywizard?

Of course it would be possible - but it´s completely needles: the controller calculates everything that´s needed in realtime. You can take any lens you like to use and any camera you like to use - telling the controller which focal length it has and what´s the sensor-size is enough for the controller to calculate the moves in landscape or portrait-mode. It does it in a way that the amount of images to shoot is kept in just the needed amount instead of gaining lots of redundant overlapping information. The overlap you can choose in a wide range. That´s useful when you have lenses which provide uneven FOVs.

So you see: there´s absolutely no need for custom presets - everything is calculated in realtime with high precision while shooting. Works perfectly - strong steppermotors and wormgear provide high accuracy even for very heavy lenses. I used up to 10kg payload - no problem at all for 4Nm.

A word on speed-mode (continuously moving and firing): my personal goal is quality and aesthestics - not speed. I don´t need to be fast - working fast can signal kind of "quick and dirty" to a client. I prefer to be expensive ;):cool:. Clients have a feeling in what they get for their money. So whether a 700MPx-sphere takes me 4 minutes or just 1,5 minutes definitely doesn´t matter. What matters is sharpness - sharpness is really needed for highres. Not speed.

I did very many panos recently - several big hires projects - never missed a speed-mode. On construction-sites for example you have to work by waiting and shooting at the right moment - because most items move so fast that even the speediest speed-mode can´t hit them all in the same position. I use stop-and-go mode then. I have a small live-view monitor fixed to a tripod-leg so i can see when cranes reach the position where they match the previous frame - then i fire the camera. Usually this way i can avoid hours and hours of composing. In crowded places with much movements it´s even worse using speed-mode - Holger, a collegue who shot the Dresden Gigapixel Pano some time ago used a Rodeon in speed-mode for shooting crowds in a football-stadion. Didn´t work sufficiently at all and he definitely wasn´t happy with it.

Tests under real working conditions showed that the usability of speedmode is definitely not matching my aspiration. That´s nothing to do with the head - it´s the same with Seitz VR2 and Dr. Clauss Rodeon ST too (which i both tested) - but is simply related to the average intensity of light which we have here.

I prefer to shoot in a subtle and "creamy" light whenever i can. That means exposure times of about 1/125 as the fastest time at f:11. And that´s definitely not matching the needs for speed-mode shooting when you want to have real sharp and high-res images: you need to keep in a range of about 1/500-1/1000 at least. So speed-mode has no realistic advantage in our mid-european region i experienced in my real world of working.

I guess it´s different in very bright tropical regions - and here it might make sense.

I could have more intense light when i would prefer to shoot in bright sunlight and/or use a high ISO. But i avoid that where i can - sometimes it´s inavoidable of course. Even in bright sunlight i get about 1/250-500sec @f:11 - that´s not fast enough for a speed-mode that deserves the term if you want to have crisp and sharp images even with a 35mm lens which i usually take for mid-high res panos with 48 images resulting in around 700MPx.

But i agreed to implement a variable speed-mode. The maximal moving-speed and releases is both calculated by the controller in relation to the focal-length and aperture - which is clever.

Because many people - usually beginners - are very impressed just by the mere word "speed-mode" :rolleyes::cool: Josef will implement it on demand - no big thing for him to do. You might call it marketing reasons . . . :cool:


best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:31 am 
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Destiny wrote:
I have my doubts wether 20% would be ok for a fisheye lens...

Well - you may doubt as long as you want: i do all of my fisheye-panos using 20% overlap. Works perfectly. Very precise head, you know . . :rolleyes::lol:

Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:41 am 
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klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Might it be possible in future to add the ability to use custom shooting patterns - like the custom presets for Papywizard?

Of course it would be possible - but it´s completely needles: the controller calculates everything that´s needed in realtime. You can take any lens you like to use and any camera you like to use - telling the controller which focal length it has and what´s the sensor-size is enough for the controller to calculate the moves in landscape or portrait-mode. It does it in a way that the amount of images to shoot is kept in just the needed amount instead of gaining lots of redundant overlapping information. The overlap you can choose in a wide range. That´s useful when you have lenses which provide uneven FOVs.

So you see: there´s absolutely no need for custom presets - everything is calculated in realtime with high precision while shooting. Works perfectly - strong steppermotors and wormgear provide high accuracy even for very heavy lenses. I used up to 10kg payload - no problem at all for 4Nm.

best, Klaus

Klaus,

I do understand your explanation but ... I don't really understand why, but with my DX Nikon and 10.5mm fisheye I find I get a better stitch when shooting in more confined domestic interiors if I shoot two rows of six images at approx. -15 and +50 degrees pitch, whereas outdoors I would normally shoot one row of six at approx. -15 and one or two 'up' at approx. +65 degrees.

Both shooting patterns produce adequate coverage and overlaps. So why does the two row of six pattern produce a better stitch using APG when shooting spherical panos in smaller interiors? I don't know, but my experiments demonstrate that it does work consistently better for me, it's not just my imagination. Perhaps it's some foible of the way APG's control point detection and optimisation works?

I know that one wouldn't normally use a robotic head with this setup, but it's an example of where one particular shooting pattern seems to work better than another.

I can imagine there might also be particular types of scene where one might wish to use a specific shooting pattern, much as you mentioned landscapes with big skies in an earlier post.

So while it's not 'theoretically' necessary to be able to use custom shooting patterns perhaps it may be a desirable feature for those who wish to be able to use custom shooting patterns, in addition to the automatically calculated patterns.

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 22, 2012 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:52 am 
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klausesser wrote:
But i agreed to implement a variable speed-mode. The maximal moving-speed and releases is both calculated by the controller in relation to the focal-length and aperture - which is clever.

Yes, that sounds clever. Would max. viable speed not also depend on ambient light levels?

Quote:
Because many people - usually beginners - are very impressed just by the mere word "speed-mode" :rolleyes::cool: Josef will implement it on demand - no big thing for him to do. You might call it marketing reasons . . . :cool:

best, Klaus

Many products offer features just to match the feature sets of market leaders, and marketing/advertising generated customer expectations, regardless of their 'real world utility', or lack of it. Does anyone really need lights and windscreen wipers that turn on automatically on their car?

Some of the 'speed modes' offered by other high quality robotic heads may indeed be less useful than many might imagine but perhaps it's best to implement the feature, and for people to learn that for themselves, rather than lose a sale to those who believe it's a 'must have'?

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
Do you have an example of the Nadir Footprint.. ??

Yes - it´s very small. I posted examples here some time before - but i will look for them and post them again. The axises are positioned very close to one side of the rig - so you get the maximum downlook angle. And that makes the Nadir very small.

Destiny wrote:
You say you have "I did very many panos recently", so do you have any to show-and-tell.... with the nadir footprint un-edited.. as it comes...

No problem - some of them i´ll post in the afternoon

Destiny wrote:
You have stated.. "You can take any lens you like to use and any camera you like to use", this a bold claim..

Why´s that a "bold claim"? It´s just reality (ok: there sure are some cameras you can´t fix on the rail . . :cool:) The controller calculates even weird combinations.

Destiny wrote:
Regarding the 'Speed' mode.. I feel personally that its an awesome feature to have with many uses.. With high-end motorised pano heads such as the LizardQ, it become fundamentally obvious and apparent that this feature has huge benefits..

I´m afraid you didn´t get the point here: LizardQ works with ONE dedicated camera only- it´s calibrated to the head and you can´t put any other camera on it than a Canon 5D2. I didn´t realize any speed mode with LizardQ when i had it demonstrated some time ago. LQ works very fast in stop-and-go mode nevertheless. It´s definitely faster than Panoneed - and it costs more than 10 times as muchas the Panoneed . . . And you´re limited to ONE camera-model and ONE fisheye-lens: Canon 5D2 and Canon 2,8/15mm fisheye.

But the most vital point is: you need VERY short exposure-times with using a "real" speed-mode - which means continuously spinning while the camera fires. Very easy, Destiny: run a test by yourself! Take a 50mm lens and set it to f:11 - that´s a value you most likely need shooting hires-spheres when you´re not shooting in open landscapes because of sufficient DOF.
See what exposure-times you can use. For really sharp and crisp images you need about 1/500 - 1/1000sec. depending on the rotation-speed. Then use the speed-mode and see what happens. View the images at 100%.

Did you ever do that? I did.

Destiny wrote:
I would totally disagree with your "quick and dirty" point of view.

No problem. Stay cool :cool: That was a bit ironically. Honestly: clients don´t need you to be "speedy" and they most unlikely want you to be speedy. Right? Taking a hires sphere in three minutes or in one minute rarely rise a problem.

Destiny wrote:
The quality output of the the LizardQ is amazing..

Right - same camera and lens that i use :cool:. No speed mode in terms of continuously spinning. LQ just is doing the same as Panoneed - stop and go shooting. But it´s faster. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dibZoCN0H_U
The price is about 24000.-€ +VAT and so on.

Destiny wrote:
Using a Speed mode does not mean to me to be providing poor quality,

Right. Not necessarily. If you have enough brightness.

Destiny wrote:
it just means that the pano has been captured in a Speedy time due to perhaps a busy scene... Cranes moving, workmen moving, vehicles moving.. Spots people moving.. action shot panos and more.. But it could also be useful in situations of time restrains in capturing as many panos as possible due to certain situations...

Destiny: please understand that there is some misunderstanding the reality . . :cool:

In "busy scenes" even a speed-mode isn´t speedy enough. There are three ways to shoot a pano in such surroundings:
1) use a rig of 6 or 8 cameras equipped with fisheyes and fire them at the same time. This is the only way you definitely get a pano without moving issues.
2) use a manual stop-and-go firing. This way you can wait for moments when no overlapping movements occur.
3) use the conventional method - automated stop-and-go - and shoot several spheres for selecting images which don´t show overlapping movement issues. Surprisiongly that works fine most of the time.

A continuously spinning camera would have to spin VERY fast to get few overlapping moves in the scene. That VERY fast spin NEEDS extremely short exposure-time for getting sharp images while using aperture of about f:11 for having sufficient DOF. Extremely short exposure-times AND small aperture mean extremely bright light. THAT´S the point. My tests proved an exp. time of 1/1000sec is safe with a 50mm lens in continuously fast spinning mode. But where - in our region - can you use 1/1000sec @f:11 or even @f:8?

Of course you can use a very high ISO - at the cost of image-quality.

I just look at it from a physical point of view. And: i often work in such surroundings. So i don´t see it theoretically but from the view of an experienced user.
I tested speed modes with the Rodeon in such surroundings. Other collegues also tested it - with no sufficient results.

So in the end: what would you REALLY NEED a speed mode for? Shooting a sphere in 45 sec instead of 90 sec.? Wow - big deal . . . ;):cool:

On the other hand: if you just shoot panos in very bright locations and straight sunlight - why not.

best, Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Tue May 22, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
But it could also be useful in situations of time restrains in capturing as many panos as possible due to certain situations...

That´s what i call "quick and dirty" - not my business. :cool:

Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:02 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
Yes, that sounds clever. Would max. viable speed not also depend on ambient light levels?

Of course - always does. You can set the speed - wether the brightness is sufficient depends on the location.

mediavets wrote:
Some of the 'speed modes' offered by other high quality robotic heads may indeed be less useful than many might imagine but perhaps it's best to implement the feature, and for people to learn that for themselves, rather than lose a sale to those who believe it's a 'must have'?

That´s what i realized too. :cool: People often think of a "must have" - and later realize they hardly can use it in reality. But then they´ve paid for it already. Btw.: speed mode usually is an optional feature afaik.
I think it´s clever to order it only if you definitely need it.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
Regarding the 'Speed' mode.. I feel personally that its an awesome feature to have with many uses.. With high-end motorised pano heads such as the LizardQ, it become fundamentally obvious and apparent that this feature has huge benefits.. I would totally disagree with your "quick and dirty" point of view. The quality output of the the LizardQ is amazing.. Certainly not "quick and dirty" ... Using a Speed mode does not mean to me to be providing poor quality, it just means that the pano has been captured in a Speedy time due to perhaps a busy scene... Cranes moving, workmen moving, vehicles moving.. Spots people moving.. action shot panos and more.. But it could also be useful in situations of time restrains in capturing as many panos as possible due to certain situations...

Destiny..

Please, enough....Klaus has explained several times why he feels that a 'Speed mode' which involves shooting with the head in continuous motion has very limited applications, particularly in the lower light levels of N. Europe and at the times of day he prefers to shoot.

It seems to me that the LizardQ is a very different beast from the Panoneed or the Seitz VR drive II - and as Klaus has said many times he'd not normally choose to use a robotic pano head if shooting with a fisheye lens.

If you have discovered situations where you have successfully used such a Speed mode - shooting with the head in continuous motion - with your VR Drive II please tell us all about them, and show us your results.

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 22, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:11 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
Btw.: speed mode usually is an optional feature afaik.

That's 'logical' and, dare I say, it also seems very Germanic - as with BMWs and Mercs where almost everything is an optional extra vs. the Korean car makers' approach where it often seems that every 'option' is standard.

Perhaps including Speed mode(s) as standard - regardless of their real life utility - could be a Unique Selling Point for the Panoneed and differentiate it from more established competitors? ;)

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 22, 2012 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:20 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
That's 'logical' and, dare I say, it also seems very Germanic -

Maybe - but Seitz is a Swiss company . . . :cool:

mediavets wrote:
as with BMWs and Mercs where almost everything is an optional extra vs. the Korean car makers' approach where it often seems that every 'option' is standard.

Agree!

mediavets wrote:
Perhaps including Speed mode(s) as standard - regardless of their real life utility - could be a Unique Selling Point for the Panoneed and differentiate it from more established competitors? ;)

The most important differentiation is the price . . . while providing comparable functionality :cool:

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:32 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
It seems to me that the LizardQ is a very different beast from the Panoneed or the Seitz VR drive II - and as Klaus has said many times he'd not normally choose to use a robotic pano head if shooting with a fisheye lens.

Yes - the LizardQ is quite a beast. Very clever made, impressively fast and precise. NO speed-mode in terms of continuously spinning and firing. It´s designed for being used without any skills - thought for crime-scenes, firefighters, construction-sites and so on. Anybody who´s able to push a button can handle it. It even levels itselves . . .
The head contains a Linux-computer and does everything alone. But: 24000.-€ +VAT including a light tripod, batteries, charger and an iPod Touch for remote . . .

And it´s limited to Canon5D2 and the 15mm fisheye. No tele, no mosaic-shooting or so - nothing . . . :cool:

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:03 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
. . as Klaus has said many times he'd not normally choose to use a robotic pano head if shooting with a fisheye lens.

Right - uaing my manual Manfrotto (modified) i can take a full sphere off 112000px in about 5-6 seconds: 6 shots hor. @-12° and Zenith.
Matches perfectly.
Using Panoneed it´s 5 shots with 20% overlap @-12° and Zenith. The Zenith-shot matchs vers well and the Nadir-hole is very small and can easily be retouched.

best, Klaus

(the screenshot is from a 35mm lens - gives about 700MPx for a sphere)



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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
You say you have "I did very many panos recently", so do you have any to show-and-tell.... with the nadir footprint un-edited.. as it comes...

Have a look: http://www.360impressions.de/H_M/ (700MPx - 48 images. zoom in . . :cool:)


Klaus

Un-edited Nadir: (i made it brighter for you)



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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:37 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:
You say you have "I did very many panos recently", so do you have any to show-and-tell.... with the nadir footprint un-edited.. as it comes...

Have a look: http://www.360impressions.de/H_M/ (700MPx - zoom in . . :cool:)


Klaus

Un-edited Nadir: (i made it brighter for you)

P.S.: now we all wait for your example of a hires and real sharp speed-mode pano! :cool:
(but don´t trick us . . :P:cool:)

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
Yes I am sure you do.. but a full frame and DX are not the same.. I am sure you would be using an fx, 20% would probably be fine.. But I still have my doubts that 20% overlap would be ok for a DX image.. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Destiny..

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:
I have my doubts wether 20% would be ok for a fisheye lens...

Well - you may doubt as long as you want: i do all of my fisheye-panos using 20% overlap. Works perfectly. Very precise head, you know . . :rolleyes::lol:

Klaus


Hi Destiny,
using my Canon Eos 400D 1.6 crop and the 8mm samyang fisheye I've no problems with 20% overlap...
Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
Yes, Josef does seem to be very fussy..

Maybe not as much as you are, honey . . . :/

Klaus

maybe i misunderstood the term "fussy" . . .

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:31 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
So while it's not 'theoretically' necessary to be able to use custom shooting patterns perhaps it may be a desirable feature for those who wish to be able to use custom shooting patterns, in addition to the automatically calculated patterns.

Hi Andrew!

Maybe i misinterpreted the term "custom shooting pattern" in your post: I see the term in the way PapyWizard uses it: a fixed pattern as xml. That means you have to calculate positions first and write all values into the xml. That´s how it works with PapyWizard on my Nokia.

The TC with Merlin and Panoneed goes another way: once you´ve configured it at home by telling it the lenses and sensorsizes you´re going to use and having this informations stored in the TC it calculates each move/position basing on this informations.

So you don´t need to design a pattern first and feed it to the device - as you have to do in PapyWizard shooting spheres. You just choose "Sphere" - the rest will be calculated in realtime basing on focal- and sensor-informations and on overlap-settings. I experienced good results using 20% overlap with my 5D2 and 15mm fisheye. This results in 5 shots hor. @-12° and one Zenith. On my manual Monfrotto i use 6 shots hor. @-10° and one Zenith with 25% overlap.
I used this pattern on the Manfrotto also when i shot spheres using a Canon 20D (1.6 crop) with a Nikon 10,5mm fisheye: 6 shots hor. @-10° + one Zenith and 25% overlap.

Of course it´s safer using two rows + Zenith. But i didn´t have any issues even in very small interiors using one row + Zenith.

best to you, Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Thu May 24, 2012 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Do you have a availability date for the Panoneed head ?

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:03 pm 
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caretaker360 wrote:
Do you have a availability date for the Panoneed head ?

I'll forward this to Josef!
Best, Klaus

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Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:39 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
I really anticipate the official start of Josefs product...
and hoepfully its ok to lift this top secrect...;-))
but marketing does also has something to do with raisiung expectations ;-))

so here is a little preview of the new page (Im not involved creating or desinging it) ....

Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

THIS IS JUST A TEST_SITE!!! Not thought for publishing at all!!

Missing information and design-items. The webdesigner just wanted to share it internal for testing!

As said: many items missing.

best, Klaus

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Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel


Last edited by klausesser on Sat May 26, 2012 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:18 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
THIS IS JUST A TEST_SITE!!! Not thought for publishing at all!!

Missing information and design-items. The webdesigner just wanted to share it internal for testing!

As said: many items missing.

best, Klaus

ok... deleted my post & image
thought its a preview of final version ...

Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Sat May 26, 2012 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:10 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
klausesser wrote:
THIS IS JUST A TEST_SITE!!! Not thought for publishing at all!!

Missing information and design-items. The webdesigner just wanted to share it internal for testing!

As said: many items missing.

best, Klaus

ok... deleted my post & image
thought its a preview of final version ...

Georg

No problem! :cool:

best to you, Klaus

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