Now - finally:  

In the panorama field, hardware is also part of the success. You can discuss here about it: camera, computer, pano head, anything
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Brines
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by Brines » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:45 pm

It would be awesome if there were a two-column table comparing the key features of each device in a simple graphical form. It could include times to create panoramas for each head as well. That might save some of the questions; it's hard to dig through all of the responses on here to get a feel for the advantages and disadvantages of either.

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by klausesser » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:03 pm

Brines wrote:It could include times to create panoramas for each head as well.

Brines: as a matter of fact the time it takes to shoot a pano depends on the exposure-time of each shot and of course on the focal-length as well as on the fact whether you shoot bracketed or not. On 10 locations you´ll find 7 different ways to shoot.
Ask a PRECISE question and you´ll get a precise answer. Give a precise description of what you want to achieve on which kind of location. The wish to be "fast" definitely is NOT precise . . :cool:

The questions you´re asking are not precisely enough to answer in a reliable manner. There are no "universal" answers.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:07 pm

Brines wrote:It would be awesome if there were a two-column table comparing the key features of each device in a simple graphical form. It could include times to create panoramas for each head as well. That might save some of the questions; it's hard to dig through all of the responses on here to get a feel for the advantages and disadvantages of either.

ok:

Full sphere, fullframe camera, 15mm fish, 20% overlap, 6 pos. x3 shots. Stabilization each position 1 sec. Time: 0,4min. complete. Image: 15000x 7500px/112MPx.
Full sphere, fullframe camera, 25mm prime, 20% overlap, 45 pos. x3 shots. Stabilization each position 1 sec. Time: 4,1min. complete. Image: 36000x18000px/648MPx.
Full sphere, fullframe camera, 85mm prime, 20% overlap, 200 pos. x3 shots. Stabilization each position 1 sec. Time: 15,1min. complete. Image: 84000x42000px/3,52GPx.

Exposure-time each shot with bracketing: 1/125sec. No mirror-up. No "shake-protection" set. Torque set to 1Nm (enough for 1DsII/III/X or D3x/85mm and manual 300mm).

Stabilization time before each exposure was set to 1 sec fix. Can be set shorter or higher - 1sec. usually optimal with lenses up to 85mm.
"Shake-protection" can be set - the head waits for definitely no shaking/vibration before firing the shutter. Good for windy locations btw. :cool:
Electronic "bubble-level" displayed on touchscreen. "Real" bubble-level built in on top of the vertical arm.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brines
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by Brines » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:22 pm

Okay, I understand what you're saying in regard to the questions.

If the Roundshot VR Drive 2 were to shoot the same panoramas in the same manner (with the 15, 25, and 85 primes, respectively; with 20% overlap, with bracketing as well; and with the the same amount of stabilization time for each shot), would it be faster or slower than Josef's head?

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by klausesser » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:49 pm

Brines wrote:would it be faster or slower than Josef's head?

Maybe, maybe not. I think it might be a bit faster. Who cares? I definitely don´t . . :D:cool:

best, Klaus
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by tived » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:27 am

I can see speed being important, but not at the expense of quality, and I am sure that is not what Brines is after.

So, getting Josef's head with the Promote gives me, HDR with Focus stacking panos with good stability, the ability to use heavy lens;s such as 300mm f/2.8 or even 600mm f/4, if thats the case then to me thats sounds very good, and for around euro$2000 + Promote. I better go and refill the kitty...the computer upgrade just swallowed the lot.

thanks

Henrik

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by Brines » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:10 pm

Would it be possible for the speed of the speed mode on Josef's head to be adjustable? If speed mode could operate at 66%--or in some cases, 25%--of its current speed, it would be extremely useful for me.

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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:41 am

Brines wrote:Would it be possible for the speed of the speed mode on Josef's head to be adjustable? If speed mode could operate at 66%--or in some cases, 25%--of its current speed, it would be extremely useful for me.

I´ll ask Josef. But the sense in your question isn´t quite clear to me . . :/

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:31 am

tived wrote:Variable speed :-) as in you could make it run at 25%, 50%, 66% or 75% speed of 100% being full speed
Henrik

Why?

What´s really important is precise positioning. Not speed. Why would a head spin slower than it can?

There always is a kind of "ramp": starts slow, moves full speed, at the final position slows down and stops.

Starting full speed wears out motors/gear and produces heavy shaking. So it´s wise to have a soft start and a soft breaking.
This only takes fractions of a second on each position.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by tived » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:13 pm

sorry klaus I was just trying to paraphase Brines question - but Its not my fight :-)

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by Brines » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:44 pm

It's not a fight at all, and there's no conflict.

Based on the numbers I was provided previously, I have gathered that I can use speed mode on either head to shoot panoramas with a 50mm lens at a shutter speed of 1/8000 and have a result that is acceptable (ie. an acceptable amount of smear).

But based on the previously provided numbers, it seems that the head moves too quickly for a 85mm lens to provide an acceptable level of smear, even at a shutter speed of 1/8000. If speed mode could be slowed down to some degree, the head would move at an adequately slow speed to be useful with longer lenses in speed mode.

There will indeed be enough light for my purposes. Based on the current limitations, speed mode is useful for me with lenses up to 50mm. Beyond that, results will be marginally useful due to smear.

Klaus, I am considering spending thousands of dollars on Josef's product, and it seems that you are here as a spokesperson for his product. As such, I'm asking questions so as to ascertain whether I'd like to invest in the product.

Please allow me to inform you of what I need in the piece of hardware, instead of the other way around. The sense in my question is there, whether or not you see it. If you would like to provide the information I need, then great. If not--and if you would instead like to convince me that there is no use for speed mode or a speed mode with a reduced speed--then please put me in contact with Josef directly so that I can get the answers I need.

Thanks,
Devin Brines
Last edited by Brines on Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:20 pm

Brines wrote:It's not a fight at all, and there's no conflict.

Based on the numbers I was provided previously, I have gathered that I can use speed mode on either head to shoot panoramas with a 50mm lens at a shutter speed of 1/8000 and have a result that is acceptable (ie. an acceptable amount of smear).

But based on the previously provided numbers, it seems that the head moves too quickly for a 85mm lens to provide an acceptable level of smear, even at a shutter speed of 1/8000. If speed mode could be slowed down to some degree, the head would move at an adequately slow speed to be useful with longer lenses in speed mode.

There will indeed be enough light for my purposes. Based on the current limitations, speed mode is useful for me with lenses up to 50mm. Beyond that, results will be marginally useful due to smear.

Klaus, I am considering spending thousands of dollars on Josef's product, and it seems that you are here as a spokesperson for his product. As such, I'm asking questions so as to ascertain whether I'd like to invest in the product.

Please allow me to inform you of what I need in the piece of hardware, instead of the other way around. The sense in my question is there, whether or not you see it. If you would like to provide the information I need, then great. If not--and if you would instead like to convince me that there is no use for speed mode or a speed mode with a reduced speed--then please put me in contact with Josef directly so that I can get the answers I need.

Thanks,
Devin Brines

Hey Devin, Tived!

No problem at all! I don´t have any interest to holding back any information - why would i? :cool: Though i definitely have no financial interest i nevertheless aided Josef during developing the head and am therefore interested in it´s progress. (I got the number one :cool:)

The point is: when the head moves from position to position it has a constant speed - everything else would be stupid. It starts softly and it breakes softly before moving to the final position.
This is for being very precise while avoiding too much shaking and motor/gear wearing out.
"Speed" mode with Seitz/Dr.Clauss also uses a constant speed afaik while shooting - without any stop - therefore you´re forced to use an adaequate shutter-speed, which must be the shorter the faster the head moves. As i understood you can choose two different - constant - speeds with the Seitz.

It´s always a question of what you want, what´s your goal: to be fast or to be good. To achieve it all at the same time isn´t easy: it can become very expensive.
Here i definitely would suggest the Rodeon ST head - for about 5000.-€. http://www.dr-clauss.de/VRHeadST_DE.htm

So if you want to spend around 5000.-€: buy the Rodeon ST and you must not think about it any more . . :D:cool:

btw. Josef writes here from time to time - i´ll tell him to respond to your post.

best,Klaus
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by tived » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:49 am

Sorry the word fight was poorly chosen

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by soulbrother » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:17 am

Hi Klaus,

is there, or will there be in the near future, a list, or table, that shows the differences of Josephs phantastic product and for example the Roundshot VR2 ?

At the moment can you update please this small list :
Panohead:
Pros:
+ price

Cons:
- weight

Roundshot VR2 drive full:
Pros:
+ weight

Cons:
- price


Whats about following points in such comparing list:

Speed (in comparable modes of course)
Handling (HW and SW)
Battery livetime, how many shoots (in comparable modes)
Precision (with comparable loads)
Torque, Power, max. load
How many and what kind of modes are available (speed, quality/precision, bracketing, video-modes, etc)
t.b.c.
...

..............................................................................
Shortly:
The above topic of the stiched mosaic fotos, shoot with wide open aperture,
to get as result an extremly small dof, is called "brenizer-method".

Just to visualize it:
http://www.ryanbrenizer.com/category/brenizer-method/
Last edited by soulbrother on Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Brines » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:04 pm

^^

Wow, that sounds amazing. If Josef's head could do that--and if panorama times for quality mode were comparable--I would buy Josef's head in a heartbeat.

I'm looking to make a purchase this week, basically. This is a hard decision to make.

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by klausesser » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:39 pm

gddxb wrote:
klausesser wrote:"Speed" mode with Seitz/Dr.Clauss also uses a constant speed afaik while shooting - without any stop - therefore you´re forced to use an adaequate shutter-speed, which must be the shorter the faster the head moves. As i understood you can choose two different - constant - speeds with the Seitz.

Klaus - you really should take a little more care in describing the features of competing products, especially if you are going to make recommendations based on what is clearly a totally incorrect understanding of the differing feature sets of the products.

The speed on the VR Drive can be set independently for X and Y motors. That is the only sense in which there are "two different - constant - speeds".

You set a time, in seconds, for the motor to turn through 360 degrees. Fastest for X motor is 6 seconds, for Y, 8 seconds (obviously the Y motor only turns through a maximum of 180 degrees).

Both are independently adjustable up to 9999 seconds.

Well - it would be clever to state that clearly and un-misunderstandably on the site. Besides: i´m not a competitor in any way to Seitz or someone else. I´m just interested in motorized heads and was asked for some infos.

I got my information from my visit at the Dr. Clauss-, Spheron-, Gigapan-, LizardQ- and the Seitz-stand at the last Photokina - therefore i wrote: "(!) As i understood (!) you can choose two different - constant - speeds with the Seitz" - which was related to the speed-mode. So it´s fine you corrected the info.

You´re right in a way: i´ll stop to communicate ANY informations besides Josef´s head. People may look for infos themselves instead of asking me . . :cool:

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:58 pm

soulbrother wrote:Hi Klaus,

is there, or will there be in the near future, a list, or table, that shows the differences of Josephs phantastic product and for example the Roundshot VR2 ?

At the moment can you update please this small list :
Panohead:
Pros:
+ price

Cons:
- weight

Roundshot VR2 drive full:
Pros:
+ weight

Cons:
- price


Whats about following points in such comparing list:

Speed (in comparable modes of course)
Handling (HW and SW)
Battery livetime, how many shoots (in comparable modes)
Precision (with comparable loads)
Torque, Power, max. load
How many and what kind of modes are available (speed, quality/precision, bracketing, video-modes, etc)
t.b.c.
...

..............................................................................
Shortly:
The above topic of the stiched mosaic fotos, shoot with wide open aperture,
to get as result an extremly small dof, is called "brenizer-method".

Just to visualize it:
http://www.ryanbrenizer.com/category/brenizer-method/

Hiho!

I actually learned preferably not to provide informations about other products than Josef´s any more. I did as an interested user who compared gadgets to choose the one that suits me (!) best.
For that reason i don´t want to compare Josef´s head with other products in public - but of course i have my own thoughts about what to prefer . . :cool:. I´m not a sales-man or something and have no business-interests in Josef´s products besides as a photographer being impressed by the quality and features.

Josef is going to publish an "official" PDF providing all vital informations. Hope he´s coming up with it soon.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:21 pm

gddxb wrote:Bottom line - these speed modes can significantly reduce the time taken to shoot a panorama if you look into it carefully.

The term "speed-mode" stands for a continuously spinning head: "In the "speed mode" the camera is rotated non-stop, ideal for moving scenes outdoors" (Seitz site).
"6 Seconds for 360° in Speed Mode" (Seitz site) means very rapid moving. Did you ever shoot from a fast moving platform using a 400mm? I did . . . :D
Using 400mm means very shallow DOF - and that means small aperture around at least f11/16 if you have objects in closer range - you would be surprised what that means even when using a 400mm.
Can you imagine to find a situation in mid-europe using 1/2000sec@f11/16? Given that 1/2000sec ist fast enough at the spinning speed . . .

Speed-mode using a 35mm on fullframe is more realistic - is used it sometimes when the light really was bright and i could use f5,6 (i prefer f8/11 for best lens-performance).
I experienced to need 1/500sec minimum.

Because i´m rather quality- than speed-oriented i abandoned the speed mode on my head-version of Josef´s. The sensors which prevent exposures at even slightest shaking
i think are more important in real life - i mean: looking into the whole stuff more carefully . . . :P

I - personally - think that for using the speed-mode with lenses over 85mm you need to live in VERY sunny regions of the world . . :cool:

Look: i´m "promoting" AutoPano for 6 years now where i can when it comes to panorama-applications - because i mean it´s a great product. That´s all.
And so i do with Josef´s head and the TC before that. They´re great products. And i´m sure that other people could use them for their work also. That´s all.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:21 pm

soulbrother wrote:Hi Klaus,

is there, or will there be in the near future, a list, or table, that shows the differences of Josephs phantastic product and for example the Roundshot VR2 ?

As far as I know nobody has both robotic heads - so no-one is in a position to offer a definitive hands-on comparison.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:33 pm

gddxb wrote:Just a word or two on the usefulness or otherwise of these speed modes that a few heads have.

I believe that there can be situations where - even with longer lenses - these speed modes could come in very useful.

Whilst I haven't actually ever used the speed mode for a big pano myself....

Then you don't actually know whether it will work in the real world.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by tived » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:37 am

Klaus,

Please keep providing us with your insight and knowledge of both Josefs and other heads, I personally find it very valuable information, as with any information, one "the individual" is responsable to verify the information, one reads.

We all try to provide the best and most reliable information we have available to us at the time of writing, when advising others, but its ultimately the readers own responsiblity to varify this.

So again, Klaus, please keep it coming.

Thanks

Henrik

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by tived » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:51 am

gddxb,

I appreciate all your math here, excellently done. but what does this actually mean
"2.16 arc-seconds divided by 2.9 arc-seconds/pixel = 0.75 pixels."
i'll let you explain, rather then me guessing. A visual approach would be great.

is there any chance you can post an image with the xml file that shows what an image will look like at this speed? and if there is any issues or not.

Thanks for your valuable input

Henrik

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by tived » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:53 am

on another note, in the opporsite direction.

i often shoot at very slow shutter speeds, in particular when I have to bracket a lot. Is there any stability issues here, i am talking 30sec or longer in bulb mode.

thanks

Henrik

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by tived » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:48 am

Thanks gddxb,

I appreciate it, just trying to get my head around it

Henrik

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by josefgraessle » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:05 am

Hallo gddxb, your calculations are correct. It means, that you get instead of a detail in the size of 1 pixel 1.75 pixel. This is reducing your horizontal resolution of your camera from 4896 pixel/1.75 to an equivalent of 2797 pixel. You must decide if that is o.k. for your work.
Josef

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