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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Brines wrote:
Klaus,

My project requires it.

How much would it cost for him to implement for a user?

When implemented, would the speed mode be faster than that of the Roundshot VR Drive Gen 2?

Thanks,
Devin Brines

Hi Devin!

I´ll forwarded this thread to Josef.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Brines wrote:
When implemented, would the speed mode be faster than that of the Roundshot VR Drive Gen 2?

I don´t think so.

What´s the reason for using speed-mode?

best, Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:45 am 
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aaronpriest wrote:
marco.lanciani wrote:
If I may, in what you don't like the Epic Pro and the Panogear respectively?

My biggest issue is that neither support my D700 and 14-24mm or 24-70mm at their no-parallax points. The camera hits the mount if I slide it back that far. I also can't center the camera over the tripod column with the Merlin.

The GigaPan Epic Pro works well with my 70-200mm for long distant shots where parallax is not an issue. I swapped out the camera mount plate with one from Really Right Stuff to easier mount my lens collar for good balance instead of mounting the camera body itself. http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=GP-CB&type=0&eq=GPCB-001&desc=GP-CB%3a-GigaPan-Clamp-Bar The GigaPan does not create an XML file for recording camera position however, so stitching plain blue skies is still as difficult as a manual head. It also cannot be programmed for a timelapse sequence where you start at point A and incrementally move to point B.

The Merlin does record an XML file of camera position for featureless stitching and I like the Touch Control Panel option. It also can be programmed for timelapse movements. It is very slow compared to the GigaPan however, but it makes up for it somewhat by moving more efficiently than the GigaPan, especially for spherical panoramas where the poles do not need as many photos per row as the equater. It can also zig zag rows for faster shooting where the GigaPan wants to shoot each row or column sequentially (like reading a book or columns in a magazine). For the price the Merlin is a good bargain, but still too small for my camera and lens combinations.

Josef's head looks like it will fix my specific issues. :-)

Don't know if this can help but here's my solution for the 14-24 on the Merlin exactly at its "no parallax point". I use a smaller camera: it's a D80, but I'm sure there's room also for the D700.
Also, yes, I can't get a +90 but @14mm this is not always necessary. In my config. I can reach +50°, enough to see the zenith. @24mm the arm is shorter and I can go a bit higher.
The bigger body of the D700 is compensated by the FF view.

As you can see from the picture I use a modified crown of my design and to support the camera I use a Camera Arm from http://www.360precision.com/ I use an Absolute and an Atom from 360Precision.

As for the XML for the Epic create it on the Merlin and then apply it the sequence taken on the Epic...better than nothing! ;)
To create the XML you just need to connect the Merlin t the computer: you don't even need to mount the camera; and use the shortest time possible to speed up things. At the end you'll get your XML.

Aaron, hope this helps.






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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:41 am 
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OK so you have # 001, are the others sold :-)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:47 am 
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marco.lanciani wrote:
As for the XML for the Epic create it on the Merlin and then apply it the sequence taken on the Epic...better than nothing! ;)
To create the XML you just need to connect the Merlin t the computer: you don't even need to mount the camera; and use the shortest time possible to speed up things. At the end you'll get your XML.

Aaron, hope this helps.

No need to have a Merlin at all to generate XML data files if using Papywizard, just use Papywizard in simulation mode.

But won't the Gigapan Import WIzard assist with the placement of 'featureless' images (such as blue sky)?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:44 pm 
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So in other words, it's significantly slower with wider lenses. Did the panorama with the IV Mark IV have same configuration as with Josef's head (10 pics, 5 in two rows)?

What would the difference be with a 50mm, 85mm, and 300mm lens?

Also, to the person who asked if it would need speed mode on both axes: yes, I would.

I will be shooting with 58mm f/1.2, 85mm f/1.2, and 300mm f/2.0 lenses at their maximum apertures to achieve shallow depth of field in mosiacs. (It will look a lot like medium format photography)

Thanks,
Devin



leifs wrote:
Here is some info about speed:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/p84051-2011-06-05-21-27-57#p84051

Canon 1D Mark IV and 15 mm Fish eye
VR drive 2:
6 second rotation time = 1/1500 shutter speed or faster
10 second rotation time = 1/900 shutter speed or faster
20 second rotation time = 1/450 shutter speed or faster

I made a little test myself and found that a sphere with 10 pics, 5pics in 2 rows, took:
19 sec in speed mode (speed 6 sec X and 8 sec Y = max)
23 sec in quality mode

the difference is smaller the longer the focal length.

leifs


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Brines wrote:
So in other words, it's significantly slower with wider lenses.

Why do you think so?

Using short focals you can do it faster of course: lesser shots. In which surrounding are you going to shoot? Absolutely forget speed-mode indoors besides using a fisheye! Which camera are you using? Crop makes it more difficult: narrower FOV=needs shorter exptime.

Fisheye on fullframe logically is the fastest way. If you need to be real fast: take a full-circle fisheye on a manual head - a "shaved" Nikon 10,5mm or an 8mm both on fullframe. Mount the camera slanted (Agnos Ring) and the diagonal (vertical then) angle is 180°.
This way you need only ONE row - no Zenith or Nadir (Nadir must be retouched anyway) - and just 4 shots. With a fullframe you nevertheless have sufficient resolution. This definitely is the fastest way to shoot a sphere. No need to motorize at all - as long as you dont use a high stand. Using an Agnos-Ring you can do a full-sphere in about 10sec. I did it and it took me 6 sec. Having 21MPx per image i got sufficient resolution for a sphere for usual presentations.

Forget 85 and definitely 300mm with speed-mode. You´d need extremely short exposure times. A sphere with 85mm means 214 images @25% overlap on a fullframe - and a lot more images on crop. Most important - because of long zoom ranges - is to avoid motion blur in the images.
So it´s vital to let the camera come to rest before each shot - preferably using mirror-lock. The slightest shaking ruins your shots if you want to zoom-in deep.

So you either are forced to shoot in VERY bright light - which rarely makes good images - or use very high ISO or both. In each case you will hardly be able to shoot a GOOD looking pano.

A 85mm using f:8/11 @ISO 100 you woudn´t be able to use a faster exp than 1/125 or 1/250sec in average light. In speed-mode that´s too slow for a real sharp shot.

If you don´t need to get it really sharp but somewhat blurry - maybe it works. But zooming in then will look really ugly . . . So i that case you better don´t do it hirez . . . :D:cool:

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Brines wrote:
What would the difference be with a 50mm, 85mm, and 300mm lens?

If you try to shoot in speed mode at the maximum speed of the VRdrive with a 300mm lens I guess you have to use shutter speed 1/30.000 or faster.
This can be calculated, and I think I have seen it done somewhere in the forum.

leifs

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:41 pm 
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leifs wrote:
Brines wrote:
What would the difference be with a 50mm, 85mm, and 300mm lens?

If you try to shoot in speed mode at the maximum speed of the VRdrive with a 300mm lens I guess you have to use shutter speed 1/30.000 or faster.
This can be calculated, and I think I have seen it done somewhere in the forum.

leifs

Depends on the spin-velocity . . . :cool: Better not too fast.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:47 pm 
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I will be shooting at f/1.2 with the 58mm f/1.2 and 85mm f/1.2 lenses.
I will be shooting at f/2.0 with the 300mm lens.
I will be using a full-frame camera with good high-iso performance. (Comfortable with shooting up to ISO 1600)

Hopefully that helps a little more.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:49 pm 
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I will not be doing full spheres either. I will be doing mosiacs, of, say, 50 degrees by 30 degrees max.

The reason I said it was significantly slower was because of what I gathered from this post:

"Canon 1D Mark IV and 15 mm Fish eye
VR drive 2:
6 second rotation time = 1/1500 shutter speed or faster
10 second rotation time = 1/900 shutter speed or faster
20 second rotation time = 1/450 shutter speed or faster

I made a little test myself and found that a sphere with 10 pics, 5pics in 2 rows, took:
19 sec in speed mode (speed 6 sec X and 8 sec Y = max)
23 sec in quality mode"

In that post, it appears that the VR Drive 2 is capable of doing a sphere in 6 seconds with speed mode, while Josef's head requires 19 seconds.


klausesser wrote:
Brines wrote:
So in other words, it's significantly slower with wider lenses.

Why do you think so?

Using short focals you can do it faster of course: lesser shots. In which surrounding are you going to shoot? Absolutely forget speed-mode indoors besides using a fisheye! Which camera are you using? Crop makes it more difficult: narrower FOV=needs shorter exptime.

Fisheye on fullframe logically is the fastest way. If you need to be real fast: take a full-circle fisheye on a manual head - a "shaved" Nikon 10,5mm or an 8mm both on fullframe. Mount the camera slanted (Agnos Ring) and the diagonal (vertical then) angle is 180°.
This way you need only ONE row - no Zenith or Nadir (Nadir must be retouched anyway) - and just 4 shots. With a fullframe you nevertheless have sufficient resolution. This definitely is the fastest way to shoot a sphere. No need to motorize at all - as long as you dont use a high stand. Using an Agnos-Ring you can do a full-sphere in about 10sec. I did it and it took me 6 sec. Having 21MPx per image i got sufficient resolution for a sphere for usual presentations.

Forget 85 and definitely 300mm with speed-mode. You´d need extremely short exposure times. A sphere with 85mm means 214 images @25% overlap on a fullframe - and a lot more images on crop. Most important - because of long zoom ranges - is to avoid motion blur in the images.
So it´s vital to let the camera come to rest before each shot - preferably using mirror-lock. The slightest shaking ruins your shots if you want to zoom-in deep.

So you either are forced to shoot in VERY bright light - which rarely makes good images - or use very high ISO or both. In each case you will hardly be able to shoot a GOOD looking pano.

A 85mm using f:8/11 @ISO 100 you woudn´t be able to use a faster exp than 1/125 or 1/250sec in average light. In speed-mode that´s too slow for a real sharp shot.

If you don´t need to get it really sharp but somewhat blurry - maybe it works. But zooming in then will look really ugly . . . So i that case you better don´t do it hirez . . . :D:cool:

best, Klaus


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Max shutter speed on the camera I would be using is 1/8000.

Thank for bearing with me guys. Is there anywhere that I could read about the shutter speed requirements for speed mode on the VR Drive Gen 2?

Thanks,
Devin


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Brines wrote:
In that post, it appears that the VR Drive 2 is capable of doing a sphere in 6 seconds with speed mode, while Josef's head requires 19 seconds.

at max speed the VRdrive can do 360 in 6 secs with no stop (=speed mode)
for two rows that is 12 secs plus the time to move from upper row to lower row, a total of ca 19 secs in speed mode.

I have done some math on this.
Assumption: you don't want the camera to move more than one pixel while the shutter is open.
I have used Canon 1DX as calculating example, and the VRdrive is moving at max speed.
The result is shown below. For a 50mm lens you need a shutterspeed of 1/7500 sec to achieve the assumption.
You can reduce the rotating speed to obtain 1/2000, but then it will in total be slower than quality mode at max speed !

I see no role for speed mode in pano photography. It is for continuous shooting while rotating doing sports etc.
If Josef's head is primarily for panos there is no need for speed mode.

leifs



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Last edited by leifs on Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:48 pm 
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Brines wrote:
. . . while Josef's head requires 19 seconds.

Where did you get that?

Using Josef´s head iit takes me about 1,5 Min. for a fisheye-sphere with bracketing and mirror-up.
Around 45sec. for a full sphere with fisheye and 1/30sec.

Our goal is quality - not speed.

Btw.: the speed mode afaik is related to spherical shooting only - isn´t it?

best, Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Brines wrote:
Max shutter speed on the camera I would be using is 1/8000.

Thank for bearing with me guys. Is there anywhere that I could read about the shutter speed requirements for speed mode on the VR Drive Gen 2?

Thanks,
Devin

I suggest to phone Seitz!

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:03 am 
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leifs wrote:
I see no role for speed mode in pano photography. It is for continuous shooting while rotating doing sports etc.
If Josef's head is primarily for panos there is no need for speed mode.

Sports usually means fast moving objects - 6 sec are much too long. You inavoidably see objects multiplied. That´s definitely not a good idea. 360° with sports you need an array of several cameras firing
at the same time. Only then you get good sport-shots in 360°.

You´re right - Josef´s head is designed for panos and mosaics in high quality. That´s why Josef does implement a speed-mode only on demand.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:54 am 
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Brines wrote:
Max shutter speed on the camera I would be using is 1/8000.

Thank for bearing with me guys. Is there anywhere that I could read about the shutter speed requirements for speed mode on the VR Drive Gen 2?

Thanks,
Devin

Seitz give you a lot of Infos you only need to read it.
http://www.roundshot.ch/documents/Roundshot_VR_Drive_2_instruction_manual.pdf
Page 59

Ps. Max 1/8000 its your Hardware that this can but you need the Lens,Light,etc for use this Speed. :-)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:33 am 
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Briger wrote:
Seitz give you a lot of Infos you only need to read it.
http://www.roundshot.ch/documents/Roundshot_VR_Drive_2_instruction_manual.pdf
Page 59

Seitz forgot to tell what focal length this is for.
6 sec speed and 1/1500 will do for fisheye or very short focal length.
For 24mm equiv the head will rotate 2 pixels while the shutter is open, resulting in smear.

I have speed mode on my head, but I have not used it one single time for panos.
I can't see why I should. Maybe except for impressing a customer. (I don't do photography for a living so I don't need to :) )
Like this http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d927/f1065.cfm
Impressing, but for what purpose ?

"Btw.: the speed mode afaik is related to spherical shooting only - isn´t it?"
The VRdrive can run in speed-mode for all types of shooting patterns.

leifs

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:43 pm 
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leifs wrote:
Impressing, but for what purpose ?

;):cool:

leifs wrote:
"Btw.: the speed mode afaik is related to spherical shooting only - isn´t it?"
The VRdrive can run in speed-mode for all types of shooting patterns.

In one of you last answers you wrote: "at max speed the VRdrive can do 360 in 6 secs with no stop (=speed mode)".

Is there another speed-mode? How do you shoot a pattern with no stops?

When shooting a patern it means for hirez usually - here i doubt a speed mode will work! The camera needs to stabilize for each shot.
How would you shoot bracketed in speed-mode? What about mirror-lock in speed-mode?

Afaik "Speed Mode" means continously scanning a 360x180 sphere - without stopping for each shot. I did it using the VR head (one row, fisheye) and realized that only ONE pixel moving with open shutter blurs the image visobly when you zoom in to 100%. 2 Pixels moving makes a clearly visible smear at less than 100%.

Shooting a hirez-sphere or mosaic means the need for high resolution. Right? High resolution means sharp, crisp visualization at deep zooms to 100%. But if it´s NOT sharp at 100% - you don´t need to shoot a hirez pano . . . :cool:

Ok - one pixel-move can be acceptable. Two pixel-move definitely means blur.

We have a - meanwhile irrational - race for extremely high resolution in panos. Do we now get an equally irrational race for speed-modes? :D:cool:

What´s the real sense in it? Whether a sphere takes 19sec or 1,5min - who cares? What´s it good for? Impressing naive clients? :rolleyes: Our clients are impressed by our photographic quality - not by speed.
Working quick and dirty and speedy ruins the reputation of panorama-photography! It´s anyway not taken very seriously in advertising agencies or other ranges where they´re used top pay much money for a well-made photo production! In that range they see it as toying around - not as serious photography. Hard to convince them that it can be made in an adaequate way their product deserves.

Doing shootings "quick and dirty" - and cheap - underlines this "underdog" status of the theme "interactive panorama" at top-class clients.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:48 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
Is there another speed-mode? How do you shoot a pattern with no stops?

There only one speed-mode. The speed is set by entering the time for a 360 i seconds. Max speed horisontal is 6sec and vertical 8 seconds. Min speed is 9999 seconds.

klausesser wrote:
The camera needs to stabilize for each shot.

Not if you shoot at 1/1500 with a fisheye or 1/8000 with a 50mm.

klausesser wrote:
How would you shoot bracketed in speed-mode? What about mirror-lock in speed-mode?

If you shoot brackets in speed mode the head will move some pixels horisontal for each bracket. If it's too much you will be in trouble.

klausesser wrote:
Afaik "Speed Mode" means continously scanning a 360x180 sphere - without stopping for each shot.

I have a program shoting a cylinder of 5 rows. If I shoot it in speed-mode the head will move continuously for 360, stop, move to next row, shoot continuously and so on. If I set it to move up/down it will move continuous up/down and stop for each column.
It can shoot any pattern in speed mode, but what is it for ? Shoot a sphere in 46 secs instead of 70 secs ?
I would rather have the "don't shoot until no vibrations" function of Josefs head.

leifs

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Last edited by leifs on Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:37 pm 
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leifs wrote:
Not if you shoot at 1/1500 with a fisheye or 1/8000 with a 50mm

Of course not:cool: That´s what i always say: you need very fast shutter-speed. Using f:8 (usually the optimal aperture for lens-quality)
and 1/1500 or 1/8000 means you need extremely bright light.

Did you test it? I did.

leifs wrote:
I would rather have the "don't shoot until no vibrations" function of Josefs head.

Yes - that´s much more important than speed mode.

best, Klaus

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What are the times for "quality" mode of Josef's head compared to the VR Drive 2?


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wow,....i am getting really dizzy here... back and forth.

shooting pano's at f/1.2 with 50 & 85mm, well I have tried it with my 85mm, but the focus is relative thin, but it does work in relative low light.
Now, I am really puzzled about your 300mm at f/2 ...I want one! :-)

well, I am still sitting one the fence - will probably bite the bullet when I get my bonus. In the mean time I am really interested to see and hear the experience from users of Josef's head, to me it sounds very promising. The VR is tried and tested and so is Clauss;s and we hear little about the PanoMachine MK II, but still another interesting option.

for me the importance is quality, duability, ability to do HDR, and even better if it can also add focus stacking, and i think the none established heads such as Josefs are more likely to accommudate us here.

please keep us informed


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tived wrote:
for me the importance is quality, duability, ability to do HDR, and even better if it can also add focus stacking, and i think the none established heads such as Josefs are more likely to accommudate us here.

Hi!

Using lenses wide open doesn´t provide the optimal quality of the lens. All (!) lenses heve their optimum some stops down around f8/11 when it comes to sharpness and vignetting.
So you need the adaequate exposure time. What you get - besides over-all sharpness - is an acceptable DOF.

Using a 300mm you definitely need mirror-lock and a wait-time for having the camera rock-steady without the slightest vibration - i experienced that even 1/500sec with long teles isn´t safe without mirror-lock. Otherwise your shots get blurred.

Josef´s head was tested only by me at this time - and i´m absolutely convinced. Maybe Seitz and Clauss are a bit faster (Clauss definitely is) - that´s not important for me at all.

HDR is done by the camera - besides you don´t use a camera which provides overriding the internal programs. Like my 5D2. I use a Promote-Controller for widely extended bracketing and programmable focus-stacking with AF-lenses - no head provides programmable focus-stacking. Promote-Control costs about 300.-€ and provides HDR+Timelapse+Focus-stacking+some others - the HDR option alone with the Seitz VR 2 costs an extra 500.-€.
http://www.promotesystems.com/products/Promote-Control.html (Focusstacking with the latest free firmware-update).

I like to leave those features to dedicated gadgeds - it´s more flexible.

best, Klaus

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Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
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Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Brines wrote:
What are the times for "quality" mode of Josef's head compared to the VR Drive 2?

I´ll check it again in the afternoon.

best, Klaus

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Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel


Last edited by klausesser on Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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