hello i need new PC  

In the panorama field, hardware is also part of the success. You can discuss here about it: camera, computer, pano head, anything
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hello i need new PC

by asafmordechai » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:31 am

I need new PC i prefer intel CPU.

a lot of memory ...

for working on 4-5GB panorama with 3000 images, each 1-2 mega.

need to be stable no need for screen, mouse or keyboard.

will run WIN 7 64 bit

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by HansKeesom » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:42 am

Cool, but other then the information above no limits, just whatever we would like?

Memory is an important factor, the more memory the less swapping.
At http://www.kolor.com/forum/p87033-2011-08-11-11-53-58#p87033 Kreature and I put together a kind of formula for the memory you will need.
Enough RAM memory is the important factor here. Having too little will slow down everything.
As you were using the canon 5d Mark II that would mean 21 megapixels, so 3000 * 4 * 21 = 252000 mb or rounded 256 GB of RAM memory you are aiming for.
Let me know if you shoot anything less then 21 megapixels.
You can do with half of that so 128 MB but that will put more stress on the next part, the superfast disk you will need for scratch-files or temporary storage. With that I mean things like SSD or some disks in RAID. Personally I would go for SSD because they are so quit.
If you go SSD we are talking about sizes of at least the 256 GB mentioned earlier but likely you want 512 GB. We are not talking SATA-connection, problably you need one on a PCI-card like the OCZ Technology Solid State Drive Z-Drive E88 - 512GB, prices around 8000 euro.

Now if there is anything left in your budget...... You want a mother board that can support all the above and has room for expansion. On the CPU site you will want as many XEON's you can have but having the above already even a i7 will finish the panorama eventually.
The case is likely one that cames with the computer but else you might wanna look at an extreme watercooling case...some processors slow themselves down when they get to hot. Safe it is but it will slow down things, so cool them.

Total price, as crazy as you make it, that is up to you....
Last edited by HansKeesom on Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by asafmordechai » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:42 pm

I cant buy hi-end system - no budget ...
this what I was thinking :

Core i7 2600K 3.4Ghz, s1155, 8MB, GPU Core, Tray

Z68X-UD3H-B3 s1155 Core i3/i5/i7, Intel Z68, DDR3 2133, 2xPCI-E

DDR3 1600Mhz
4x4GB G.Skill RipJaw Edition Dual Channel CL9-9-9-24

Western Digital
Caviar Green 2TB IntelliPower, 64MB, SATA II WD20EARS 2 unit

DVD‏ LG
DVD±RW GH22NP x22 Black IDE (Oem) 1

‏CoolerMaster
CM690 II (Advanced) Black ATX Case With Window (No PSU)

Corsair
TX 650W V2 Active PFC 14cm Fan 1

SSD
‏Intel 120GB SSD X25-M Sata II 2.5'' SSDSA2MH120G2K5

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by HansKeesom » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:32 pm

Hahaha, like us you live in a real world with real budgets.

I am no technician so no idea how good the individual parts are and how good the work together.

Reading http://www.basecom.nu/products/Gigabyte-GA%252dZ68X%252dUD3H%252dB3-S1155-ATX.html
i see "1. 4 x 1.5V DDR3 DIMM sockets supporting up to 32 GB of system memory". I find 4 sockets and a total of only 32 GB not so futureproof.
On http://www.intel.com/products/server/motherboard/index.htm you can see a few examples of boards that have more sockets.. They maybe too expensive for you, in that case, have you considered to start with 32GB straigth away?

The SSD will be the most important part to make things go fast. I am not sure it will be big enough for your projects. Any idea how big the temp directory becames on you current system when doing a likewise project? If close to 120GB or more your might want to increase the size of the SSD.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by asafmordechai » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:19 pm

the ssd is for autopano ? not for win ?

so maybe take 2 of them ?

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by HansKeesom » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:57 pm

personally I don;t understand why people buy an SSD to put windows on it. Oke, it will start your machine in 33 seconds instead of 1:33. So what, after the initial minute it is what you do with the machine that counts.
So yes SSD for Autopano and maybe for the windows pagefile. Windows I would do on a regular harddisk.

Have you already shot your big event in the stadium? Wasn't that you? If so, how did it go? Any results yet? Anything stitched?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by asafmordechai » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:37 am

yes i did ...
the result were fine so I am doing again for the client in the start of next week.
so this why I need new PC I need a bigger panorama.

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by HansKeesom » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:24 am

Congratulations then. In case you don't have your PC ready I can give a hand with the final rendering. You might wanna do the detection fase en editing yourself.

goood luck.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:53 am

Do yourself a favour and buy a Mac and then put Bootcamp with Win 7... PERFECT... Great graphics, always quick and you get the best of both worlds.. :cool:

Destiny...

asafmordechai wrote:I need new PC i prefer intel CPU.

a lot of memory ...

for working on 4-5GB panorama with 3000 images, each 1-2 mega.

need to be stable no need for screen, mouse or keyboard.

will run WIN 7 64 bit

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by tived » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:47 am

Wow, Destiny, thats real deep - I am so greatful for that recommandation! I have found the holy grail to all my computing problems - if only I could wait for it to finish :-) LOL

Sorry Destiny, but that isn't a solution, thats adding another problem. I see where you are going, but its a bit like saying to a race driver at Bathurst, just jump in a Holden Barina it will take you anywhere. There is nothing wrong with a Barina nor is there anything wrong with a MacPro. The only thing is that apart from being prettier then a Barina with its otherwise great OS, its really slooooooooooooow and very restricted in regards to what you can add to it.

I do prefer to show off my Mac to my friends when they come around, cos it looks so good and they get so impressed :cool: and it makes me looks so COOL. I don't have the heart to tell that out in the backroom are the real workhorses, they are ugly as hell, with their guts hanging out, all hot and well they can't sweat, but if they could they would cos they are the ones making the dough so I can show off my pretty shiny Mac to my friends and paid aquientiences.

Sorry for the sarcasm, its not personal


To the OP,

unless you are absolutely making a killing with these pano's, you are most likely not going to buy or build a computer with 256GB of ram, or anything close. Your own suggestion sounds reasonable for a snappy desktop. Hans's formulea is great in an imaginary world where we have a free buffet of computing components. If you are going to be doing this kind size of pano's on a regular basis and you can make some good $$$$ and time is short, then you will need to build something a lot more powerful.

You will definately need more then 16GB of ram to play with these pano's, i did basic global adjustments yesterday on a clients computer on (iMac i7 27" latest 2.9GHz, 8Gb, standard disk) and to 240x120tcm @ 300dpi pano for print, it took a little less then two hours for it to run through the paces, getting it up to 6 layers in Photoshop (8GB file size) doing various of enhancements (Sorry Hans - Trade secret :) )

If you are going down the SSD route, you will want to look at 3rd Geb disks which are said to be 2x faster then 2nd Gen, start with a few and then build it up as you get paid.

Ideally you want to prevent bottlenecks in the system, the biggest one in standard systems is the storage, which is also the slowest, this is being slowed down even further if you do not have enough RAM memory in your system. Building these super computers are really really expensive and you really need to make some serious dough to pay for it, we are talking 10's of thousands of dollars, though the first 10k will give you a really nice system :cool: but after that things goes up really fast. When you from 8GB sticks to 16GB sticks its often more then double the price (In My own system it can take 12 x 16GB 192GB) but I currently have only 6 x 8GB and when funds permits will go to 96GB. but all that ram is no good if you can not off load your data fast enough to your storage and these big panos need lots of space and they need it fast.

Apple do have one thing going for it, which is this new Thunderbolt tech, which i think can give you 2GBit/sec - in the PC world that would currently take 4x 3rd Gen SSD's to reach that speed in a RAID-0, plus a good raid controller.

There are many decisions to make and think about before venturing into building these big machines be it Mac or PC, if ought to find yourself a good PC-builder with experience in this area. Hans's systems calculater can certainly get you in the ballpark of what you ideally need and then you just need to bring it in line with your Finances.
If you do not have the experience or someone to call upon to build one of these, then you are better off taking Destinys advise and get a Mac

All the best

Henrik
Last edited by tived on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by asafmordechai » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:52 am

this is my problem.
for the current line of work my PC is fine.
but I I wont to take a project like the one I am aiming for my PC wont hold it ... but to buy a super PC its out of my budget at the moment.

so to go and buy the PC ?
in the spec that i give it will be able to work in big panorama and open in photoshop to process them ?

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by tived » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:00 am

Its just a matter of time, your PC will probably cope but so much time will pass between each operation that you most likely would have forgotten what it was that you were meant to have done :-)

Do you really need to make it this big? <what am I asking you, of course you do> but seriously, could you do with a lower resolution, as it must likely is only going to be viewed on the the web.

Don't worry I am all in for more powerful computers but I also know first hand how hard they are to pay for. You could also use Hans's service and pass the cost on to the client.

Best of luck

Henrik

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by HansKeesom » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:00 am

Henrik,

to help the OP I will not repond to your irony, although I get the point and can laugh about it.

The calculation that you refer to indeed comes up with 256 GB. It also gives two clear indications what to do if that is over budget
1. - Reduce the number of photos and their resolution. The calculation is 4 times "the number of photos" times "the resolution of each photo" so there you go. if he wants to shoot 3000 photos at full 21 megapixel resolution then 256 GB is the ideal amount of memory to have.
2. - 256 GB is the ideal, you can do with half of it, a quarter of it or even 1/8 (being 32 GB). But you will pay for it in the sense of longer rendering time and you will need to compensate buy buying a large enough SSD or superfast HDD which is larger then what cames out of the formula, keeping in mind point nr 1. So if he wants 3000 photos at full 5d resolution he would need a SSD/harddisk that is at least 256 GB, just for the scratch..

Rereading the OP carefully I have to apoligiese. He is talking about 1-2 mega. is that 1-2 megapixel? In that case 3000 * 4 * 2 = 24000 MB so 24 GB. 24 GB being ideal, 12 GB being fine (at least if it is free memory) so yes 16 GB would then work. Get yourself a larger then 24 GB SSD/RAID HDD and things go.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:10 am

He could do with a renderfarm like described in http://www.kolor.com/forum/t12990-renderfarm

Will take a lot of time to upload 3000 photos but it should work
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by tived » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:08 am

Hans,

I think you are missing my point or thinking I am taking the piss on you. This is not the case, I think the calculations are true to what is really required. But that also brings us to the reality of which we live in, that we most likely will not be able to afford what is ideal.

I think you are sometime taking yourself a little too serious IMHO. No need to, you have the respect of myself and most people here. You are a very valuable contributer here, and I would like to thank you for making the time to help us, and I hope you are also getting something in return. Now We may not always agree but that is ok.

If you re-read my response and neglet the sarcasm at time :-) I am actually agreeing with you in most cases, even recommanding your service, however I am also giving a second point of view, based on my practical experience with building hardware for both PC and Mac's, I am probably stronger in the hardware side of this biz, then in the ins and outs of using the actual software, at least thats how I feel :-)

So getting back to this case here, the calculations of the size of ram is fine. However its the cost of producing such computers that prohibating for most of us, unless you are Steve Jobs or Bill Gates you will have to compromise on the build.

We talked about workflow on previous occasions, and on the more basic level, the data has to travel through the system, in systems with limited resources, this date will not only have to travel through but back and forth (Swapping) due to lack of RAM, which then is also slowed down with the use of mechanical harddrives over the faster Solid State Drives (SSD).

Spreading your investment into both memory and storage, will give you are more balanced system, in particular when you work on larger data sets then can fit into memory. Off loading the data on to disk is the single most time consuming task. Anyway... I think we are in agreement when we reach bottomline of this discussions.

For the OP, let us know if any of this is making any sense, if you have any specific questions, please ask away. I will be away the next month with only limited internet access, but I will try and chip in when possible.

all the best

Henrik

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by HansKeesom » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:45 am

tived wrote:Hans,

I think you are missing my point or thinking I am taking the piss on you. This is not the case, I think the calculations are true to what is really required. But that also brings us to the reality of which we live in, that we most likely will not be able to afford what is ideal.

No, I did not think you were taking the piss on me, I trust you on that and if you would I would just frown and go in. It was for the OP's sake that I tried to focus on the issue he brought up. It did make me think about whether I should share my workflow here and I problably try to do so soon.

tived wrote:I think you are sometime taking yourself a little too serious IMHO. No need to, you have the respect of myself and most people here. You are a very valuable contributer here, and I would like to thank you for making the time to help us, and I hope you are also getting something in return. Now We may not always agree but that is ok.

I think a number of people here form a very good team and help newbies a lot. If I am only a little bit part of it I am honored (take this only little bit serious...)
I know I can be too serious, certainly from behind a keyboard. Working on it, thanks for the warning..
I am getting a lot in return, a lot! I could not deliver the quality I am at now without the help I get here.

tived wrote:If you re-read my response and neglet the sarcasm at time :-) I am actually agreeing with you in most cases, even recommanding your service, however I am also giving a second point of view, based on my practical experience with building hardware for both PC and Mac's, I am probably stronger in the hardware side of this biz, then in the ins and outs of using the actual software, at least thats how I feel :-)

As you know, two lamps shining on a subject gives a lot more depth :-)

tived wrote:So getting back to this case here, the calculations of the size of ram is fine. However its the cost of producing such computers that prohibating for most of us, unless you are Steve Jobs or Bill Gates you will have to compromise on the build.

As said, 256 GB was the ideal machine when having to process 3000 images of 21 megapixel. As it turns out he will do 1-2 megapixel we can go down to only 24 GB as ideal and 16 GB as well workable.

tived wrote:We talked about workflow on previous occasions, and on the more basic level, the data has to travel through the system, in systems with limited resources, this date will not only have to travel through but back and forth (Swapping) due to lack of RAM, which then is also slowed down with the use of mechanical harddrives over the faster Solid State Drives (SSD).

I will try to put into writing what my ideas are here. I really think a good workflow will help people a lot.

tived wrote:Spreading your investment into both memory and storage, will give you are more balanced system, in particular when you work on larger data sets then can fit into memory. Off loading the data on to disk is the single most time consuming task. Anyway... I think we are in agreement when we reach bottomline of this discussions.

Absolutely!

tived wrote:For the OP, let us know if any of this is making any sense, if you have any specific questions, please ask away. I will be away the next month with only limited internet access, but I will try and chip in when possible.

all the best

Henrik

Ditto! Apart from the being away thing
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by tived » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:58 pm

Hans,

Beer if you come down under!

Henrik

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by HansKeesom » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:01 am

tived wrote:Hans,

Beer if you come down under!

Henrik

Two beers if you came up here :-)

Or do you have a job there for me? ;-)
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by [bo] » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:39 am

Instead of listening to those two high-rollers with their unlimited budgets... I'd like to add a few things about your proposed config.

CPU: Get the best SandyBridge CPU you can. No point in going down the Xeon lane, unless you're made of money or charge thousands of Euro for a single shot...

DO NOT get the "Green" drives - get the "Black" series. I'd personally get two x 2TB and have an on-line daily backup, but that's just me.

4x4GB is not bad, but I'd suggest filling the MB to the top - get 4x8GB and sleep well, knowing you cannot possibly cram any more RAM into that system. Also, you'll save the hustle of selling the 4x4 next year, when you finally come back to your senses and go for the 4x8 ;)

SSD: Get one for the OS/apps and another for temp/swap. Be sure they're both 3rd generation, as Andrew suggests. Depending on the size of your jobs, you might get 120GB for OS and 512 for temp/swap.

And that's that.
Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

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by Destiny » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:30 pm

Ya.. I don't believe in super computers either.. This is my Mac Pro specs.... It gives me a free sun tan too.... :cool:

Destiny...:lol:



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by HansKeesom » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:06 pm

Destiny wrote:Ya.. I don't believe in super computers either.. This is my Mac Pro specs.... It gives me a free sun tan too.... :cool:

Destiny...:lol:

Looks rather super to me, would love to have these specs
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by tived » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:15 am

LOL :lol: I am particular impressed by the English user manual :D

Henrik

Destiny wrote:Ya.. I don't believe in super computers either.. This is my Mac Pro specs.... It gives me a free sun tan too.... :cool:

Destiny...:lol:


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