Planning to buy a Motorized Panohead, need help.  

In the panorama field, hardware is also part of the success. You can discuss here about it: camera, computer, pano head, anything
no avatar
leifs
Member
 
Posts: 648
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Ørsta Norway
Info

by leifs » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:26 pm

klausesser wrote:when i told about my use of a 35mm. It´s obvious that a 35 or 50mm havs steeper downlook-angles than a fisheye.
Therefore the Nadir is much smaller. Test the VR-drive with a fisheye and the Nadir will look exactly like the one from LizardQ or Josef´s head.
bst, Klaus

That's wrong. If you have a NPP-aligned setup the focal length does not matter. The footprint of the motor is arctan(x/y) for all practical purposes.
If the x increase the footprint increase.
If the y decrease the footprint increase.
(Yes, I know the setup in the picture should have been be rotated 90 deg)

The trouble for Gigapan, Panogear and the LizardQ is their small y.

leifs


Last edited by leifs on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

no avatar
leifs
Member
 
Posts: 648
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Ørsta Norway
Info

by leifs » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:53 pm

I have included the Panogear in the family of "motors-with-small-Y's".
It has a large X and a small Y => large footprint.

Large footprint is not a problem at all for gigapanos but a problem for spheres.

leifs
Last edited by leifs on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:26 am

leifs wrote:That's wrong.

Believe me - it´s a fact. Try it youself! :cool:

It´s logical: a longer focal-length means a narrower FOV. And then you see less ot the foot at the same angle as with a fisheye.
Therefore the Nadir-hole ist smaller and more rounder because of more à­mages.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:28 am

leifs wrote:Large footprint is not a problem at all for gigapanos but a problem for spheres.

That´s what i was talking of - you showed Nadir images . . :rolleyes: ;)

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:35 am

leifs wrote:The trouble for Gigapan, Panogear and the LizardQ is their small y.

That´s the reason Josef designed a long "y" arm. But of the same impofrtance is the position of the axis: if you position the axis very close to the edge of the rail you´ll get a steeper angle and because of that a smaller Nadir.
So it´s BOTH: the height (y) and the position of the rotating axis. The axis should be as close to the rail as possible to have a steeper look down (doesn´t solve the problem with the tripod-legs . . :cool:).

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:55 am

leifs wrote:That's wrong.

Again: it´s correct. here you can see a Nadir shot using a 35mm lens on a 5D2. The Nadir shot with a 15mm fisheye on the 5D2 you can find some posts ago:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/postgallery.php?pid=92198&filename=footprints2.jpg (Josef´s head)

Though Josef´s head ha a larger base than the VR-drive the Nadir is of a comparable size using also a 35mm lens.

That makes it clearer i hope!

best, Klaus


Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:59 am

Destiny wrote:Hi. .. can anyone tell me if the Nikon D90 will work with a VR Drive... The reason why I ask, my wireless remote has to be plugged into the GPS port...

Destiny...

Why would you use wireless remote to fire a camera on the head? You might use wireless for triggering the HEAD - the head fires the camera by a short cable.

But honestly: a D90 on a 3000.-€ head (2700.-€ +tax and customs and transport) seems a bit funny i mean.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:22 am

Destiny wrote:But, I still think the VR drive and the MK PanoMachine, will create a smaller footprint than the Lizard.... by the way they are designed... the size of the unit..

No.

Destiny wrote:The Lizard is way over priced so good luck to them..

The LizardQ´s business-model is to sell it to people who use it without the least understading of what they do. It´s a fully automated turnkey-system which you place somewhere, push a button and off it goes. It has a small Linux-computer inside which controls and fires the camera, makes it use HDR, levels the pano automatically
by writing the leveling parameters into the positioning script.
I met them at the Photokina in 2010.

So their clients are police, firefighters, forensics, costruction sites and so on. Big money spenders so to speak.

Nothing for people who are able to stitch and render panos themselves.

Destiny wrote:THe MK and the VR drives area affordable even though they are expensive...

If you need it and it makes you earn more money: yes. If you can earn the same money using cheaper gear: no . . . :cool:

Destiny wrote:To me.. my choice for a motorised pano head will be the VR Drive at the high end...

Are you really shure that would make sense for you?

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:27 am

Destiny wrote:Not sure what you mean Klaus.. I use my wireless remote for bracketed shots for LDR VRs... I don't have to touch the camera while shooting, only to rotate it on the NN4...

Again: a motorized head fires the camera itself. You control the head and the head fires the camera.
Using a manual head of course YOU have to fire the camera - manual heads can´t do that.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:50 am

Destiny wrote:Not being an expert.. but I would expect the stitching to be better as well as the quality of the image... There is a lot of staggering of the images on the rails... also the full size image is a bit dull...

Well - obviously that was at the beginning of the production-stage. Not corrected, unretouched. A 700MB Pano with about 240 bracketed shots - part of this one:
http://360impressions.de/KBogen/

Destiny wrote:not being an expert...... just my opinion.... :rolleyes:

really? :cool:

best, Klaus

besides: the camera was mounted diagonally on a boom to have a steeper look-down angle - you might recognize that seeing the off-center Nadir.
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

no avatar
leifs
Member
 
Posts: 648
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Ørsta Norway
Info

by leifs » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:43 am

Here is the compability-list for cameras on the VR Drive 2
http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d855/f589.cfm

All the Nikon cameras are there ofcourse. My Olympus E-P3 is not on the list but works fine anyway.
That's because it is actually all about the cable plug. E-P3 use the same remote cable as E-5, therefore it works too :)

btw: some of the Canons and Nikons have a HDR mark. That is because Seitz plan some built-in bracketing function.
I have not seen any description on what they plan to do, but it's in their price-list !
You can do bracketing with the cameras bracketing function without the HDR option, so it must more than that.

leifs
Last edited by leifs on Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:54 pm

Rent it for a week and you can buy one :-)
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
leifs
Member
 
Posts: 648
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Ørsta Norway
Info

by leifs » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:43 pm

Take a deep breath and have a look at the price-list at
http://www.roundshot.ch/documents/Roundshot_VR_Drive_2_price_list.pdf

You would want the 95xx Roundshot VR Drive "full" (fully motorised x and y) hardware
The 5 options quality + speed + turntable + video + HDR is software (in the head), upgradable via USB cable.

btw: you can rent it !
page 7: "for 1 week / für 1 Woche / pour 1 semaine CHF 600"

leifs
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

no avatar
leifs
Member
 
Posts: 648
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm
Location: Ørsta Norway
Info

by leifs » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:36 pm

If the bracketing range of your camera is enough you don't need the HDR option. They say:

<<In the "HDR mode" the camera is controlled by the VR Drive, enabling wider bracketing for 32-bit HDRs.

Digital SLR cameras have a bracketing range limited to +/- 3 f-stops. For 32-bit HDR photography this is insufficient. The VR Drive "HDR mode" overcomes this limitation by controlling the camera software directly and allowing much wider bracketing options. It is an "all-in-one" solution - no additional devices are needed.>>

leifs


Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:03 pm

leifs wrote:"Digital SLR cameras have a bracketing range limited to +/- 3 f-stops. For 32-bit HDR photography this is insufficient. The VR Drive "HDR mode" overcomes this limitation by controlling the camera software directly and allowing much wider bracketing options. It is an "all-in-one" solution - no additional devices are needed."

That´s a bit more complicate: the camera internals must accept to be overidden. I bought a PromoteControl which overrides my 5D2 internal features and allows more than 21 bracketing steps with max 2 EV each.
My 20D doesn´t let Promote do that.

So if Seitz implements those advanced HDR features it´s not guaranteed that a D90 accepts it! Check the Promotesystem´s site for information which camera-model allows to be controlled this way. If it doesn´t accept PromoteControl it much unlikely will accept the Seitz advanced HDR-feature.

In the end it´s much more clever to pay about 300.-€ for a Promote and use a motorized head of your choice - like Merlin as an example - if extended bracketing in panos is needed.

Besides: there´s a site which shows how to nag away a part of the Merlin´s base to make it smaller and have a steeper downlook angle which gives a much smaller footprint not only for fisheyes.

But definitely the Seitz is better and faster of course . . .

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:25 pm

Destiny wrote:I am still a bit confused to the pricing.... I am sure its 2,960 EUR.... which is almost $4,000 Aus.. oh man.. oh hum....

The one I want is at the far left.... the speed mode one... for bigger cameras and lenses.. No point in getting the smaller one since I hope to buy a bigger lens one day too....:/

oh hum... so much .. :rolleyes: I guess its down to my beautiful little NN4 making me some money to buy it all..

Destiny...

Impressive movie. 158 photos in 2 minutes. I like the speed and the inherent quality of using a 18 mm lens.
I still don't like the Nadir, I want to have a nadir shot without seeing the machine in the wau

Yeah the money thing.........problem here also. Therefore and because I am not sure what a automatic panomachine will bring me, I was thinking of a growth path. Start with somethin affordable and buy extra parts when more business and the thing has proven itselfs.

That is why the MK of 1180 euro excl VAT in combination with my NN5 and MM nadir adapter still seems the way to go for me.....hope it will all go well when using a 24 mm lens.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
HansKeesom
Member
 
Posts: 2210
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 2 posts
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm
Info

by HansKeesom » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:26 pm

Destiny wrote:if it was that top price of 4710 Eur... that will be just over $6000 Aus... I am assuming it won't be more... :(

+ lens... oh hum... .. its 3 am here... just tying to figure out a way of getting out of yucky teaching to do better photography to be able to afford to pay for my little girls education.. emmm... Looks like plan B... buy a red light bulb, screw it into the porch light and sit and wait for passers by..... :)

D.. :(

Plan B.......that bad already....
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

no avatar
mediavets
Moderator
 
Posts: 16414
Likes: 2 posts
Liked in: 130 posts
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:12 pm
Location: Isleham, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Info

by mediavets » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:06 pm

Destiny wrote:So, since the engineers of motorised pano heads have totally neglected the footprint nadir patch....

Motorised heads are typically use to shoot hi-res partial panos (panos with a panoFOV of less than 360x180) with long(er) focal length lenses.

Hi-res spherical panos are still very much a novelty.

Is it really necessary to patch the nadir in a hi-res spherical pano?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

no avatar
mediavets
Moderator
 
Posts: 16414
Likes: 2 posts
Liked in: 130 posts
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:12 pm
Location: Isleham, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Info

by mediavets » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:10 pm

Destiny wrote:I see you mentioned the 18mm lens.. is it this the type of lens which I should be considering...?? I will have to use my kit lens for now... if i buy the VR Drive...]

The Nikkor 50mm f1.8D is compact, lightweight and relatively inexpensive but has excellent optical performnce.

This makes it a good candidate for shooting higher-res sphericals using a robotic pano head.

Since you like to read his opinions here's what Ken Rockwell has to say about it:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/5018daf.htm

.........

One of the potential problems of using zoom lenses is the possibility of zoom and/or focus creep at higher +/- pitch angles.
Last edited by mediavets on Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:23 pm

Destiny wrote:So, since the engineers of motorised pano heads have totally neglected the footprint nadir patch....

NEGLECTED??? :lol:

Destiny wrote:I am guessing that the only way to take an image of the nadir for a patch is to keep the camera pointing down and move the camera around in a few positions off centre to the main pano and click away.... or is there another way of capturing the patch images.. In some cases it will be possible to work round it using Photoshop but not every time...

In 90% of all cases retouching tne Nadir works fast and fine. Usually faster and more comfortable than fumbling with an extra shot.

Methods of shooting a Nadir were often discussed and described here. I usually prefer to retouch the Nadir in the bottom-cubeface.

When shooting an extra Nadir image you face very much the head´s base and tripod-legs of course. APG doesn´t provide a way to mask them out like it´s inside of PTGui - but of course you can mask it out in Photoshop.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:37 pm

mediavets wrote:Is it really necessary to patch the nadir in a hi-res spherical pano?

Depends of course. Full spheres in my eyes make sense up to 4-5 gigapixels. If you have a scene where it´s essential to look down also . . it´s wise to make it available. But the only way here to me seems retouching the Nadir - highres shots of a Nadir are extremely complicated.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

no avatar
dex2009
New member
 
Posts: 8
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:22 am
Info

by dex2009 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:40 pm

A little too wabbling video, they probably didn't mount any gimbal or stabilizer on it.

Destiny wrote:Hi... WIth you coming from a Helicopter background you might like this... I am sure you same similar on your web site...

http://www.nimmobay.com/media/360-video/360-video-nimmo-bay-helicopter-resort

D....

dex2009 wrote:;)

Coming from the RC Helicopters world, we are quite used to work with servos and mounts, and if we can get a spherical pano up there in the air I thought it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to adapt to a much better and solid ground. ;)

Have a look at this example:

http://vimeo.com/30518716

and resulting VR:

http://azchoppercam.com/pano_downtown_phx_3.shtm


Destiny wrote:Hi.. I am soooo glad you said you are NOT trying to be the smarter guy here... Let me know how you went trying it out...

Destiny.... The smarter girl... ;)





no avatar
dex2009
New member
 
Posts: 8
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:22 am
Info

by dex2009 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:49 pm

Hi all,

A little update on the DIY motorized pano head project with servos mentioned on second page (seems already ages ago in this thread).

So far I set up the servo for panning, I went for a digital servo (5645MG) which provide enough torque to move a dSLR with fisheye very easily, modified for 360 rotation, added an external potentiometer to control speed and connected it to an arduino controller when I need to control the head in a more sofisticated way.
The external pot is able to drive the servo in both clockwise and CCW direction, the speed is adjustable to a good degree - very slow to very fast - the fastest I tried was 1 round per second, way too much of course.

When the head is controlled with arduino, the fun begins. You can do variable speed, set up acceleration/deceleration ramps for speed, program stop-shoot-move actions with a wireless shutter, an a lot more I have not investigated yet (such as adding the tilt servo for full motion).

The mount is a DIY one made of alu, very similar to a NN3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-hIqFw8ma8 (just an example)

I think its getting good so far for a fun project, it uses the same principles as the big expensive heads - programmable - but with a ridiculous budget:

The mount was maybe 5$ worth of material, servo is around 41$, wireless remote 15$, arduino $20, programming is free being opensource.

One question for someone who had already tried continuous shooting with 360 rotation:

I am using the wireless remote to continuously fire a burst of shoots while the head rotates, what is the lowest shutter speed required to get decent results, say at 2 to 4 seconds for a full rotation? I seem to be stuck to not lower than 1/1600th to get sharp images that can be used for stitching....
Last edited by dex2009 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
klausesser
Member
 
Posts: 8828
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 63 posts
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Info

by klausesser » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:49 pm

dex2009 wrote:I seem to be stuck to not lower than 1/1600th to get sharp images that can be used for stitching....

Right - and that´s rarely practicable if you don´t want to use wide open apertures and/or very high ISOs.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

no avatar
dex2009
New member
 
Posts: 8
Likes: 0 post
Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:22 am
Info

by dex2009 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:15 pm

klausesser wrote:
dex2009 wrote:I seem to be stuck to not lower than 1/1600th to get sharp images that can be used for stitching....

Right - and that´s rarely practicable if you don´t want to use wide open apertures and/or very high ISOs.

best, Klaus

Mmm, so I guess I have to do some more tests. I think the scenarios where a really fast rotation is needed are not so common: shooting fast actions, crowds at not so good lighting, so maybe in such cases a higher iso setting or wider aperture can be a good compromise (I prefer the first to the latter, I think its better to deal with noisy images than blurred ones from using f2.8 - unless stitching a long burst of images can trim out the blurred corners?)
For the rest of the scenarios, I can just try to lower the rotation speed and see if I can shoot at lower shutter speeds.

I really have to look at the arduino code to do stop-shoot-move sessions, and see how fast I can do a complete 360 with that ;)

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest