Planning to buy a Motorized Panohead, need help.  

In the panorama field, hardware is also part of the success. You can discuss here about it: camera, computer, pano head, anything
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HansKeesom
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by HansKeesom » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:36 pm

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:When I did my Diploma of Multimedia, we tried out the array.. it was really funny.. we used still cameras.. it took ages to set up .... the movie industry use it a lot but for us it will be way too expensive ... you will need at least 10 cameras... and the switches to make them go off at the same time.... good luck with it.. its a fun thing to do... and you can capture amazing images...

Don´t know which kind of array you´re talking of. You need around 4-6 fisheye-cameras and the array is set up in seconds on location.
We´re are testing 5MPx-cameras with 170° diagonal FOV which can do stills and movies. Once assembled they stay an array.
No problem to trigger them all at the same time.

First tests went good - need a lot of fine-uning of course. You definitely can´t do any gigapixel this way . . :cool: - but for usual
displaying it´s very fine. And it does 360° movies too . . ;)

best, Klaus

Hi Klaus,

I know this kind of setups from studios. What I wonder, how are the parallex problems? Do lines in small rooms stay good, or is there a minimal distance that has to be observed?

cheers,

Hans
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by leifs » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:49 pm

Destiny wrote:I think the D700 with 14-24 would work well mounted on a motorised VR head.... The D3X might be too heavy....

Destiny..

I have retrieved my dino from the closet to see what the VR drive can do. So I mounted it as shown below. (You woldn't do it like this, would you?)
Did the VR drive swing it ? Yes it did. No problem.
Normally you would use the lensmount, and I guess the VR drive can move some really heavy equipment mounted in a balanced way.

Leif


Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
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by HansKeesom » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:56 pm

leifs wrote:
Destiny wrote:I think the D700 with 14-24 would work well mounted on a motorised VR head.... The D3X might be too heavy....

Destiny..

I have retrieved my dino from the closet to see what the VR drive can do. So I mounted it as shown below. (You woldn't do it like this, would you?)
Did the VR drive swing it ? Yes it did. No problem.
Normally you would use the lensmount, and I guess the VR drive can move some really heavy equipment mounted in a balanced way.

Leif

I did not see a smiley but assume some irony was intended when mounting it like this, right?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:56 pm

HansKeesom wrote:I know this kind of setups from studios. What I wonder, how are the parallex problems? Do lines in small rooms stay good, or is there a minimal distance that has to be observed?

I know them too - worked with it - but they´re quite different . . . :cool:

It´s possible to find a common setting for all cameras in the rig. But it´s not working on minimal distances - we´re testing.

Those rigs, which i´m speaking of are thought for the use above, let´s say, 5m - with some help of routines in the application :cool:
They are NOT thought for the use inside small rooms . . .

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by klausesser » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:06 pm

leifs wrote:Normally you would use the lensmount, and I guess the VR drive can move some really heavy equipment mounted in a balanced way.

Yes - definitely it does. I tried it at the Photokina. It moves about 4Nm afaik. That´s heavy load!
D3x with a 300mm was no problem. Fine piece of engineering!

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by leifs » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:50 pm

HansKeesom wrote:I did not see a smiley but assume some irony was intended when mounting it like this, right?

:)
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by leifs » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:35 pm

klausesser wrote:Leif - shooting gigas with apertures wider open than f8 is a no-go i my eyes. Even with nightshots i take f8 as a minimum - but i definitely prefer f11/16 with lenses
between 35 - 85mm for full-spheres. Gigapixel-mosaics with 200-300mm i usually do with f11.
Modern cameras work very well even at 800ISO and some work very fine at 1600ISO.
I anyway use only prime-lenses which have absolutely no vignetting from f5,6 up. So i never need to correct them - neither for CA nor for vignetting.
These lenses are somewhat more expensive - but they save you a lot of time by not having to correct them. So in the end they´re cheaper!
best, Klaus

I shot a gigapano with a Canon 50D and a Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS USM
400mm 1/500s f8.0
http://www.rundskuer.no/krpano/orstafrapolsa4.html
I hoped f8.0 would do it since the 50D has crop 1.6. But no. You can see the mosaic in the water.
I have read somewhere that the human eye is very sensitive to repeating patterns. And it seams like the patterns gets more visible when the pano is moving.
That means panos are even more sensitive to vignetting if they are interactive instead of stills.

leifs
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by klausesser » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:54 pm

leifs wrote:That means panos are even more sensitive to vignetting if they are interactive instead of stills.

No. With a still you look longer at the same picture - so you have more time to recognize faulty areas.
The lens you mentioned isn´t soo bad at all - but f8 at 400mm is just one step closed on the other hand . . .

But regarding you anyway use the "sweet area" of the lens with a crop-camera you shouldn´t have ANY problem
even at f8.

So i´m not convinced it´s vignetting! Did you post-process the shots in a RAW-converter? Dis you use any settings beside of RAW-conversion?
Maybe you better don´t do it this way.

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by leifs » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:03 pm

klausesser wrote:So i´m not convinced it´s vignetting! Did you post-process the shots in a RAW-converter? Dis you use any settings beside of RAW-conversion?
Maybe you better don´t do it this way.

best, Klaus

I also doubted it was vignetting.
The pano was shot in RAW and the files were converted to TIF using Canon DPP, with default settings.

In another thread, http://www.kolor.com/forum/t13354-burj-khalifa-world-s-tallest-building-3.7-gigapixel
I have tried to find out what it is, in "my search for a smooth sky".
As you can see Alexandrej has no doubts : "Quite for sure, this is vignetting. It gives these typical darken zone at corners of images."

After reading Destiny's suggested reading : http://www.archiphoto.com/personal%20pages/Vignetting.html
I am confused. This reading concludes that there is no such thing as a lens with no vignetting, because of the law of physics called "cos-4th law".

The proof of the pudding is the resulting interactive pano.
I will try f11 and f16. In many cases, low light conditions, this will not be an option though.

leifs
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by klausesser » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:55 am

leifs wrote:In another thread, http://www.kolor.com/forum/t13354-burj-khalifa-world-s-tallest-building-3.7-gigapixel
I have tried to find out what it is, in "my search for a smooth sky".
As you can see Alexandrej has no doubts : "Quite for sure, this is vignetting. It gives these typical darken zone at corners of images."

I see - LOOKS like vignetting indeed. But a lens which is designed for a fullframe can´t produce such a vignetting on a crop-camera at f8 i suppose. Or it´s not worth a dime, sorry - or it has a defect. I guess we´re still talking about your Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS USM!?
So something might be very strange here.

How exactly did you process the files ? Did you try them without any processing? Did you try a different converter?
I had such an issue once - whe i used the "360image" setting in Photomatix. This setting produed axactly ths same "vignetting". After that i realized that it meant to
"close" a 360° equirectangular and NOT to be used with images to be stitched.

Or are we talking about a different lens? It´s a bit confusing me . . :cool:

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by leifs » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:00 pm

klausesser wrote:I see - LOOKS like vignetting indeed. But a lens which is designed for a fullframe can´t produce such a vignetting on a crop-camera at f8 i suppose. Or it´s not worth a dime, sorry - or it has a defect. I guess we´re still talking about your Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS USM!?
So something might be very strange here.

In the other thread it is not about the Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS USM
I have used severel lenses there , e.g. Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 25mm f1.4 ASPH lens.

klausesser wrote:How exactly did you process the files ? Did you try them without any processing? Did you try a different converter?
best, Klaus

The gigapano at http://www.rundskuer.no/krpano/orstafrapolsa4.html is shot with the Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS USM to CR2 files
I have tried to process the CR2-files directly i APG but the result was ugly (june 2010). Therefore I converted the CR2-files to TIF using Canons DPP software.
Maybe I will try DXO and Lightroom some day.
btw: have I read somewhere that it is planned a LR plugin for APG ?

Leif
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by klausesser » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:26 pm

leifs wrote:btw: have I read somewhere that it is planned a LR plugin for APG ?

Yep there is one - but when i tried to intall it on my MacPro some time ago the installation crashed . .
So i didn´t give it another try :cool: Maybe it works now - never cared again because i don´t need it.

I process my RAWs in CaptureOne or in Lightroom and export them as TIFF or JPG for the use in APG. Never had ANY issue with lenses.
Did you try ColorCorrection in APG? Usually it corrects such issues with un-even density perfectly!

What camera/lens did you use with the vignetted shots (you wrote "several")? Can you pin down the lens/camera
which you used for this shots?

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by leifs » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:30 pm

klausesser wrote:What camera/lens did you use with the vignetted shots (you wrote "several")? Can you pin down the lens/camera
which you used for this shots?
best, Klaus

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p90067-2011-10-25-23-36-17#p90067
is shot with Olympus E-P3 and a Olympus 50mm f3.5 macro from the fullframe era at f8.0

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p90560-2011-11-05-13-00-20#p90560
is shot with Olympus E-P3 and a brand new Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 25mm f1.4 ASPH at f8.0

leifs
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by klausesser » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:59 pm

leifs wrote:
klausesser wrote:What camera/lens did you use with the vignetted shots (you wrote "several")? Can you pin down the lens/camera
which you used for this shots?
best, Klaus

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p90067-2011-10-25-23-36-17#p90067
is shot with Olympus E-P3 and a Olympus 50mm f3.5 macro from the fullframe era at f8.0

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p90560-2011-11-05-13-00-20#p90560
is shot with Olympus E-P3 and a brand new Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 25mm f1.4 ASPH at f8.0

leifs

Ok - sorry, i mixed it up with the Canon 50D and the Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS USM - because in that case i´d be extremely surprisd to see vignetting @f8 . .

With the Olympus i don´t have any experiences - but also i´m a bit surprised about the vignetting indeed. Guess you´d either have to use f11/16 or a centerfilter ;) . .
or to switch to another system.
Seems even DXO can´t solve the problem, does it? Does DXO have the correct curves for the Leica lens?

I just donwloaded the images you linked to in the oter thread - APG shows me 12,5mm and a factor of 1x . . . guess that´s wrong, is it.
What chip-size/crop does your Olympus have (i don´t know the camera)?

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:06 pm

klausesser wrote:I just donwloaded the images you linked to in the oter thread - APG shows me 12,5mm and a factor of 1x . . . guess that´s wrong, is it.
What chip-size/crop does your Olympus have (i don´t know the camera)?
best, Klaus

The ORF-files were converted with Olympus Master software, and it didn't recognise the panasonic lens. Therefore there is no lens-information in the file.
The beauty of MFT-system is that I can use whatever lens I want to :) the sorrow is that there is no lens-information in the ORF or TIF, the combo is not in the DXO database and there is no corrections done in the camera before the pics are save to the card :(
The E-P3 has crop 2.0.

leifs


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by leifs » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:50 am

I guess it wil make a laaarge footprint, like the Gigapano.
See http://www.kolor.com/forum/p89103-2011-09-28-18-53-38#p89103

leifs
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by HansKeesom » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:49 pm

Indeed, a beautifull device to create high quality panoramas. The small nadir is not that much a problem although for the price one would hope there is a way to make the nadir shot. It would be enough if you can place a ballhead between tripod and the lizardq, tip the whole installation 90 degrees, cracnk up the tripod a number of cm and make the last shot. this would be too much effort for most panoramas where the floor is not that important but a nice solution for when you want the best.

Maybe the lizardq people can make an automatic expansion to their device..........idea copyrighted by Destiny and Hans Keesom :-)
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by HansKeesom » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:24 pm

As they are german, I am closer. could pick up a set by car, it is only 500 KM, so cost me about 190 euro on fuel to pick up.
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by leifs » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:13 pm

Destiny wrote:No Liefs..The LizardQ is about the same footprint as an NN4 or Nadir from Josef´s head, easily fixed but pity it doesn't swing out to capture the nadir patch.
Destiny....:cool:

To check if this is right I have collected three footprints. The first two from this thread and for LizarQ I downloaded their sample: 1-Meadows.jpg
Then I converted it to qube-faces and this is how it compares. I'm not impressed.

leifs


Last edited by leifs on Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:29 pm

leifs wrote:
Destiny wrote:No Liefs..The LizardQ is about the same footprint as an NN4 or Nadir from Josef´s head, easily fixed but pity it doesn't swing out to capture the nadir patch.
Destiny....:cool:

To check if this is right I have collected three footprints. The first two from this thread and for LizarQ I downloaded their sample: 1-Meadows.jpg
Then I converted it to qube-faces and this is how it compares. I'm not impressed.

leifs

The VR-drive´s footprint seems to result from shorter lens. The one from me was done with a Canon 15mm fisheye, LizardQ uses the very same one.
It depends on the vertical tilt - Josef set it to -12° and i shoot 5+1 images @20% overlap. That works very fine. LizardQ also shoot 5+1 as i recall.

I guess Seitz a) has more than -12°, but has to add one or two more shot(s), b) used a shorter fisheye or c) didn´t use a fisheye at all in this sample.
When i use my 35mm lens for a full sphere on Josef´s head i also get a much smaller Nadir - looks very much the same like the Seitz example.

I will add an image later. Josef made the vertical arm a bà­t longer in the final version - so the down-angle is more steep.

best, Klaus
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by leifs » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:40 pm

klausesser wrote:The VR-drive´s footprint seems to result from shorter lens.
best, Klaus

the VR Drive 2 footprint is from a 112 pic sphere @ 50mm equiv
told at http://www.kolor.com/forum/p90444-2011-11-02-22-17-51#p90444

leifs
Last edited by leifs on Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:50 pm

leifs wrote:
klausesser wrote:The VR-drive´s footprint seems to result from shorter lens.
best, Klaus

the VR Drive 2 footprint is from a 112 pic sphere @ 50mm equiv
told at http://www.kolor.com/forum/p90444-2011-11-02-22-17-51#p90444

leifs

From my own perspective the most economic solution seems a automatic pano head on which I can place my NN5 so it will do the rows automaticly but I will have to change the vertical after each round. Using the Nodal Ninja Nadir Adapter I can then easily make brilliant panoramas while keeping a great Nadir.


The MK Panmachine offers me such simple machine for 1180 with VAT, so that would be 1404 euro incl VAT
The VR Drive 2 will cost me 1800 (incl VAT?).

Are there any reasons to convince me buying one or the other?

Does my thinking misses something?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:43 pm

leifs wrote:the VR Drive 2 footprint is from a 112 pic sphere @ 50mm equiv
told at http://www.kolor.com/forum/p90444-2011-11-02-22-17-51#p90444


leifs

That´s what i also guessed when i told about my use of a 35mm. It´s obvious that a 35 or 50mm havs steeper downlook-angles than a fisheye.
Therefore the Nadir is much smaller. Test the VR-drive with a fisheye and the Nadir will look exactly like the one from LizardQ or Josef´s head.

bst, Klaus
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by klausesser » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:55 pm

HansKeesom wrote:The MK Panmachine offers me such simple machine for 1180 with VAT, so that would be 1404 euro incl VAT
The VR Drive 2 will cost me 1800 (incl VAT?).

Are there any reasons to convince me buying one or the other?

Does my thinking misses something?

The VR drive for full spheres starts at 2700.-€ + tax.
The horizontal-driven version starts at about 2000.-€ + tax.

http://englisch.roundshot.ch/documents/Roundshot_VR_Drive_2_price_list.pdf

best, Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:59 pm

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:The MK Panmachine offers me such simple machine for 1180 with VAT, so that would be 1404 euro incl VAT
The VR Drive 2 will cost me 1800 (incl VAT?).

Are there any reasons to convince me buying one or the other?

Does my thinking misses something?

The VR drive for full spheres starts at 2700.-€ + tax.
The horizontal-driven version starts at about 2000.-€ + tax.

http://englisch.roundshot.ch/documents/Roundshot_VR_Drive_2_price_list.pdf

best, Klaus

Hi Klaus,

Thanks for pointing that out. Based on financiall consideration the MK Panomachine seems more attractive. I will try to make a more complete comparision for myself on paper, including growth path etc. to a full automatic system.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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