Planning to buy a Motorized Panohead, need help.  

In the panorama field, hardware is also part of the success. You can discuss here about it: camera, computer, pano head, anything
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leifs
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by leifs » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:25 am

This also does video, using your camera (if it can do video)
http://www.pano-pro.co.uk/khxc/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=display&ref=video

It does not do spherical video though.

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

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by HansKeesom » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:30 pm

Destiny wrote:BTW Georg... I tried to view the Kolor Eyes lots of times but it asks for a WebGL so I installed WebKit but it did not work...

http://www.gigastitch.com/kolor-eyes-1.0/

Destiny....

Hi guys,

To my opinion a normal video inside a 360 * 180 degrees panorama is an enrichment. However, a 360 degrees video is causing full blown panic attack, I have no idea where to look and have the feeling I am always missing something where-ever I look. i really want the cameraman back there.

I will invest in getting more video into my panoramas but no way will I go for 360 degree videos. It is a dead-end street or rather a dead-born baby for me.

enjoying your comments as always, I greet thy,

Hans Keesom
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm

Yes I would like to play with it also, as a toy. On the other hand, if having one in hands convinces me/us, then i(t)/we will be able to convince everyone and have a huge market, so come-on, girocam, do the wise thing and ask for my address :-) I will give it a fair and knowledgeble review.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by leifs » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:56 pm

The VR Drive 2 does spheres with optimized number of pics.
And it is very easy: enter the focal length and overlap, it calculates the placement of the pics,

e.g. 84mm eq with 30% overlap:

pitch 90 : 1 pics
pitch 77 : 13 pics
pitch 62 : 20 pics
pitch 46 : 26 pics
pitch 31 : 29 pics
pitch 16 : 31 pics
pitch 0 : 31 pics
pitch -15 : 31 pics
pitch -30 : 29 pics
pitch -45 : 26 pics
pitch -61 : 20 pics
pitch -76 : 14 pics
pitch -90 : 1 pics

This result in a sphere of 270 pics, shot in 5min 26 sec
I would not try to do this any other way than a robot.

btw: it does bracketing. up to 13 per position !

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

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by mediavets » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:08 pm

leifs wrote:The VR Drive 2 does spheres with optimized number of pics.
And it is very easy: enter the focal length and overlap, it calculates the placement of the pics...

This result in a sphere of 270 pics, shot in 5min 26 sec
I would not try to do this any other way than a robot.

btw: it does bracketing. up to 13 per position !

Leif

Sounds wonderful - has Roundshot implemented the promised support for the Papywizard-compatible XML data file yet?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by HansKeesom » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:24 pm

Destiny wrote:Ok.. this one has it all in one ball of goodies, lens / camera.. HDR/LDR and VIdeo and makes a great cup of coffee too.... :o

Its called the 'Destiny 360 VR CamSphere' with 22 HDR lenses....

Its the brainchild of my 'imagination'.... :lol::P

Destiny :lol::D

Isn't this the camera that hoovers in mid-air and can intelligently scan the surroundings space to make a 3D model of the locations and automaticly decides where to go next?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by leifs » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:55 pm

mediavets wrote:Sounds wonderful - has Roundshot implemented the promised support for the Papywizard-compatible XML data file yet?

No. Current version is 1.10 and I am not sure when it will show up.
While waiting I have "reverse engeneered" the shooting pattern (=read out pitch and pics from the screen) and made me Papywizard XML's for the focal lengths I use: 8,14,25,42,55 and 85 (crop 2).

I mostly do outdoor spheres, with a 4m Gitzo carbon boom pole. Then it is very nice to have the built in remote control :-)

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

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by leifs » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:23 am

This is a robot remote control.
Manual for the VR Drive 2 is available at http://www.roundshot.ch/documents/Roundshot_VR_Drive_2_instruction_manual.pdf
The remote control is described at page 22 and 23

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

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by leifs » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:40 am

For now the VR Drive 2 do brackets using the cameras bracket function:
E.g.: You set the camera to do 5 brackets per position, then you set VR Drive to do 5 brackets per position.

Seitz has announced a HDR mode, but I have not seen any spesifics for it. I guess it will be something like Promote, for the cameras that support that kind of control.
No date for this mode has been set.

The head will work with any focal length.

My employer is Volda university college in Norway and panos is my hobby :-)

The pano at
http://www.rundskuer.no/krpano/vallahor … 10828.html
is a "technology test". it was a day with boring weather, so I went to this summit to do some field testing. the "bending" is a function named "little planet" in krpano
have a look at http://www.krpano.com/examples/littleplanets/

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

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by leifs » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:55 am

Destiny wrote:Hi Leif... No, I did not mean the Little Plannet, I know what that is.. I meant the entire pano.. when moved up and down while rotating... it makes me sea sick...:/ On land...:lol:
Destiny...

krpano can present the pano in different projections, and the trick for "little planets" is the use of stereographic projection
http://www.krpano.com/docu/projections/#stereographic
in this projection can you can feel like at sea when moving the pano up and down past the equator :D

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

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by HansKeesom » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:10 am

Destiny wrote:I like the way their cameras capture a pano in minutes and some in seconds.. The notes suggest it can capture a full 360x180.. I am downloading some of their images to test out and make a tour using ptp 1.7. Not sure why Seitz didn't make a VR tour of their images..... I just need to win the lotto to buy one... oh hum... to be rich!!!:rolleyes:

Destiny...

In the original girocam discussion I got a response from marc about the MK PanoMachine. He said "You can add the Nodal Ninja Ultimate M1-L on top of the MK PanoMachine. So MK PanoMachine replaces the RD 16. This means you have to change the vertical arm yourself but also that I can use the nodal ninja nadir adapter I have on my nodal ninja 5 in the same way as before to make the nadir shot and have 180 degrees vertical.
It can't do bracketing other then the camera built in, but you can add a promote control for this. It does not change the vertical arm for you, if that is important you can go for the 1699 euro version. It have asked for a price for a PanoMachine without any arms that carriers my current nodal ninja. Could be a good starting point. for more quality in my panoramas. Later I would then buy the automatic arms and a promote control.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:56 am

I wondered what that stereographic projection did.. I never got round to trying out out.. and now I have seen it.... I won't bother... oh yuck... yuck and yuck.. At least its not the motorised pano head doing it.... :lol:

Destiny...

leifs wrote:
Destiny wrote:Hi Leif... No, I did not mean the Little Plannet, I know what that is.. I meant the entire pano.. when moved up and down while rotating... it makes me sea sick...:/ On land...:lol:
Destiny...

krpano can present the pano in different projections, and the trick for "little planets" is the use of stereographic projection
http://www.krpano.com/docu/projections/#stereographic
in this projection can you can feel like at sea when moving the pano up and down past the equator :D

Leif

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by Destiny » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:14 pm

A lots of "maybe's" going on there... and maybe pigs will fly.. or not....:P... I love your optimisum.. I guess the manfactures are counting on people like you...:lol::lol: or they won't sell any...:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

We have been thinking how we can use our NN4 with a motorised head.. We thought that perhaps for what we need the main issue will be the tilt of the upper arm.. I think the rotation is easy to do... so we thought that perhaps semi-automatic... perhaps set the upper arm at 15 degrees down for the first rotation and then set the upper arm to 60 degrees up for the second row of 6 images, just motorising the rotation... But we only want to do this for very small areas like the inside of a car or boat... that way we only have to manually move the head once... Not really sure it this will work... since we are looking at bracketed shots for this it might be practical to do.. The smaller the area the more risk of moving the camera... so, 18 images first row and 18 top row... Still thinking about it all... We are sure there must be an easy way to motorise the NN4...

Destiny...

HansKeesom wrote:Thank you, I will do my utmost best to find better use for it then a doorstep. I will actually go a long way trying to get the best out of it and will even send it ack without a scratch. maybe there is a way to trick it into good quality. Maybe they can create a firmware for it that does 9 step bracketing, maybe I can make an adapter so that it can also do a good nadir. I am rather creative and thinking out of the box so it might really help.

Destiny wrote:I like the way their cameras capture a pano in minutes and some in seconds.. The notes suggest it can capture a full 360x180.. I am downloading some of their images to test out and make a tour using ptp 1.7. Not sure why Seitz didn't make a VR tour of their images..... I just need to win the lotto to buy one... oh hum... to be rich!!!:rolleyes:

Destiny...

In the original girocam discussion I got a response from marc about the MK PanoMachine. He said "You can add the Nodal Ninja Ultimate M1-L on top of the MK PanoMachine. So MK PanoMachine replaces the RD 16. This means you have to change the vertical arm yourself but also that I can use the nodal ninja nadir adapter I have on my nodal ninja 5 in the same way as before to make the nadir shot and have 180 degrees vertical.
It can't do bracketing other then the camera built in, but you can add a promote control for this. It does not change the vertical arm for you, if that is important you can go for the 1699 euro version. It have asked for a price for a PanoMachine without any arms that carriers my current nodal ninja. Could be a good starting point. for more quality in my panoramas. Later I would then buy the automatic arms and a promote control.
Last edited by Destiny on Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:08 pm

Destiny wrote:Will it work with a 10.5 fisheye.... ?? Only since I want to take less images in a small space as quickly as possible....

A motorized IMO head has no real advantages when using fisheyes - besides of being able to remote control it on a
high tripod and/or having the xml positioning files.

Usually i take my manual head when doing fisheye-shots.

Regarding lesser images: using Josef´s head i shoot 5 images at -12° plus Zenith. That means 20% overlap using the 5D2 and 15mm fisheye.
Works very well.
My clickstop-plate on the Manfrotto SPH (modified, stripped down) doesn´t provide correct clicks for doing so. Maybe your NN does - it´s definitely worth a try!

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Destiny » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:24 pm

Hi…

I wanted to see what the example pano’s from RoundShot web site looked like using ptp 1.7, since they were captured using a motorised camera…. I did not include the map feature since I was not sure where some of these images were taken…. But ptp 1.7 worked really well with no issues and it did not crash using such large images.. I just love this program… ptp just gets better and better...

Some of the pano’s as you can see match up at the ends ok but one overlaps quite a lot which is better than less than 360…. I did not do any editing of these pano’s, this is how they came downloaded… The problem is, where people are involved… by the time one end was captured, people had moved so there is a mismatch, despite the fact that these image can be captured within seconds. The images seem to be better using the camera outside than inside… I would like to have seen a bracketed image to see what that looked like inside....

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/RoundShot/RoundShotTest0.html

I used the Thumb Stack and the Thumbs on top for navigation to test them both but I also put my own version of interactive thumbs on the 'Info' button… It seems to work fine… Even though I think ptp is a great app, I really think more could be done with the navigation options… making it more fun to drive the pano tour…

Not sure about the quality of some of these pano’s, I would love to play with some of the RoundShot stuff but it’s a dream since it cost so much… way out of my price range at the moment… I was thinking of putting baby up on eBay, but she eats too much, poos too much and most of the time smells too much so no one will buy her… :lol::lol:

Moving people in a pano is always going to be an issue... Girocam had the right idea but they blew it... Now it will be up to others to invent a workable solution... I believe there is a huge market for the right lens or camera + lens... which captures a single high quality bracketed image..

Destiny...
Last edited by Destiny on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by HansKeesom » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:40 pm

Moving people -> short shuttertime, multiple exposures of same position, a bit of masking in photoshop, should be fine then. Try me :-)
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by PanoMachine » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:43 pm

Hi:

Yes, it´s possible to order the MK PanoMachine 7.0 (horizontal drive with integrated control) and use your own panoramic tripod head .

MK PanoMachine 7.0
Horizontal drive with integrated control
- Automatic calculation of the sphere, the required rows and shots (with motorized Vertical Drive)
- Menu with a short overview of the most important functions or all functions
- Stop & Shoot mode
- HighSpeed mode
- CR mode (continuous rotation)
- Time-Lapse mode
- Video mode
- Turntable mode
- 32-bit HDR with optional Promote Control

EUR 1180,- net, FOB Germany

Free ir remote control, camera cable e.g. Nikon, Canon..., lithium ion batteries if you order before x-mas.

Have fun

Marc

www.vr-head.com

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by leifs » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:20 pm

This is the ultimate mountaineering (and carry-around) pano kit in my opinion. The spec is:
- robust
- lightweight
- fast rigging
- fast shooting

My kit is:
Olympus E-P3 with Panasonic X PZ 14-42mm F3.5-5.6
Seitz VR drive 2
total weight: 2.8kg including camera

Often I bring along my Canon FD 85mm f1.8 too :-)
It is not NPP-aligned. It does not matter very much as I shoot with a handheld 4m pole.

leifs




Last edited by leifs on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by leifs » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:08 am

And what does a 270 pics outdoor sphere look like ? Have a look :
http://rundskuer.no/panotour/ulsteinhetta/

It is shot with 84mm equiv at f5.6. I have tried to "repair" the vignetting in DXO, but you can still see patterns around zenith.
High resolution spheres (and gigapanos) are extremely sensitive to vignetting.
Because of the time and power needed to process this large spheres I guess I will normally use 50mm equiv.

A 270 pic pano at 84mm equiv makes:
- a PSB-file of 9gig
- converted to cube faces: 6 TIF-files of 900MB each
- a Panotour of 490MB (http://rundskuer.no/panotour/ulsteinhetta/)

Summary:
robots with x- and y-motors makes fisheyes almost obsolete
you can use whatever lens you want to make spheres
vignetting is a problem
maybe you need to do focus stacking in narrow spaces (or use a fisheye)

leifs
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
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by leifs » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:55 am

Destiny wrote:Yes Leifs... looks like a fisheye might fix the vignetting... http://www.archiphoto.com/personal%20pages/Vignetting.html

D....

Very interesting. And new for me. Fighting the laws of physics is not an easy thing to do :-)

But for gigapanos and gigaspheres something has to be done ! And I know of three paths (maybe there is more)
1) stopping down. conflicting interests between small aperture/high ISO in low light conditions
2) repair the vignetting with software like DXO. best if camera/lens combo is in their database. then the repair is supposed to be 100% (?)
3) new cameras do a lot of math inhouse even before saving the RAW-file to the card. correcting vignetting and distortion etc. this will not work with lenses from other makers, like my E-P3/Panasonic lens combo :-(

For now I will have to use a combo of 1) and 2) and pull some sliders in APG (diamond weighting etc)

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
Seitz VRdrive2
2x Intel Xeon E5-2660, 128GB RAM, Win7 64bit, SSD RAIDs

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by leifs » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:11 am

I'm happy with the camera.
I have a Canon 50D in the closet, have not used it for some time. Too heavy and clumsy, and the lenses is big and heavy too.
And there is no need for a 24Mp sensor when I can shoot 4x12Mp and stitch them instead :-)

Leif
Olympus OM-D E-M1, Leica 25mm f1.4, fisheye, zooms, primes
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by klausesser » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:01 pm

Destiny wrote:I would have no use for a motorised head since I could put it in the smallest of areas like cabins in boats or cars or action VRs.

But you can! In fact it´s better doing such motifs motorized: you don´t need to stay beneath the camera for releasing and moving it around.
You start the sequence and move out, let the head work alone. ESPECIALLY in very small locations that´s a great help!

For shooting "action VRs" you need an array of cameras to cover 360x180 with ONE shot. Some people do it already - we´re testing an array actually ;)

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:44 pm

leifs wrote:
Destiny wrote:Yes Leifs... looks like a fisheye might fix the vignetting... http://www.archiphoto.com/personal%20pages/Vignetting.html

D....

Very interesting. And new for me. Fighting the laws of physics is not an easy thing to do :-)

But for gigapanos and gigaspheres something has to be done ! And I know of three paths (maybe there is more)
1) stopping down. conflicting interests between small aperture/high ISO in low light conditions
2) repair the vignetting with software like DXO. best if camera/lens combo is in their database. then the repair is supposed to be 100% (?)
3) new cameras do a lot of math inhouse even before saving the RAW-file to the card. correcting vignetting and distortion etc. this will not work with lenses from other makers, like my E-P3/Panasonic lens combo :-(

For now I will have to use a combo of 1) and 2) and pull some sliders in APG (diamond weighting etc)

Leif

Leif - shooting gigas with apertures wider open than f8 is a no-go i my eyes. Even with nightshots i take f8 as a minimum - but i definitely prefer f11/16 with lenses
between 35 - 85mm for full-spheres. Gigapixel-mosaics with 200-300mm i usually do with f11.
Modern cameras work very well even at 800ISO and some work very fine at 1600ISO.
I anyway use only prime-lenses which have absolutely no vignetting from f5,6 up. So i never need to correct them - neither for CA nor for vignetting.
These lenses are somewhat more expensive - but they save you a lot of time by not having to correct them. So in the end they´re cheaper!

here you can see two panos with around 270 pics and 85mm:
http://www.s341703522.online.de/Index.html
here you can see a mix of 35mm and 85mm (Halle Mitte, 4gigapix):
http://360impressions.de/Wuppertal/
and also a mix of 35mm and 85mm (Schadowstrasse, 4gigapix):
http://360impressions.de/KBogen/

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:03 pm

Destiny wrote:When I did my Diploma of Multimedia, we tried out the array.. it was really funny.. we used still cameras.. it took ages to set up .... the movie industry use it a lot but for us it will be way too expensive ... you will need at least 10 cameras... and the switches to make them go off at the same time.... good luck with it.. its a fun thing to do... and you can capture amazing images...

Don´t know which kind of array you´re talking of. You need around 4-6 fisheye-cameras and the array is set up in seconds on location.
We´re are testing 5MPx-cameras with 170° diagonal FOV which can do stills and movies. Once assembled they stay an array.
No problem to trigger them all at the same time.

First tests went good - need a lot of fine-uning of course. You definitely can´t do any gigapixel this way . . :cool: - but for usual
displaying it´s very fine. And it does 360° movies too . . ;)

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HansKeesom
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by HansKeesom » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:48 pm

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:I would have no use for a motorised head since I could put it in the smallest of areas like cabins in boats or cars or action VRs.

But you can! In fact it´s better doing such motifs motorized: you don´t need to stay beneath the camera for releasing and moving it around.
You start the sequence and move out, let the head work alone. ESPECIALLY in very small locations that´s a great help!

For shooting "action VRs" you need an array of cameras to cover 360x180 with ONE shot. Some people do it already - we´re testing an array actually ;)

best, Klaus

I have to agree with Klauss, I did a day shooting small interiors of small yachts and boats . Really difficult also as you have to go to the camera after eacht shot.

At the moment I am really looking at the Panomachine 7.0. Without arms it is 1180 euro without VAT. Can put my own nodal Ninja on top of it and have it make a circle automaticly. Seems like a good compromise, also as it will allow me to do the nadir like I do nowadays.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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