geko5766 wrote:

Hello all,

first of all, I think this is a good place to promote a new  automized panohead. It is the PANONEED, developed by Josef Graessle, part of this forum and community.

I received this wonderful piece of equipment this week and my first impressions are: It is build like a tank, it is fast, reliable and , althoughmot really a bargain, worth each penny. It is a great tool, please do not hesitate to stop by at his site: www.typeandcolour.de.

Now my query: I tried to get used to this machine, but, I can try what I wnat, all xml files I use to import produce scrambled pictures only. I have a snapshot of a 50 pic circular pano. It show the free import (workin fine) and the scrambled picture with papywizrad import. Strange enough, it works 100% with APg 264.

Seems to be a severe bug.

If the free import works fine, then why bother with the Papywizard Import wizard when it is not required?

I agree that the Papywizard Import wizard should work properly too, but I think it is acknowledged that it is not as effective as it should be as it seems to allow the optimiser to relocate images far from their recorded shooting co-ordinates rather than tightly constaining the degree to which the optimiser is permitted to relocate images from their recorded shooting positions.

It sounds as if Kolor has perhaps somehow unintentionally 'screwed up' the Papywizard Import wizard if it works with your XML data file and images just fine with APG 2.6.4 but not with 3.0.4/3.0.5.

If you need the xls and or pics, pls let me know.

Can you post the XML file here - use the code tag - I'd like to see it and to determine whether it complies with the latest published standard:

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/ … _data_file

The Seitz VRDrive2 XML files didn't comply, although it was originally claimed that they did; which I why I presume that head now has its own Import wizard).

Last edited by mediavets (2013-03-16 15:37:01)

Looking at your screenshot I see a few odd things - see my annotated screenshot below.

First of all what camera and lens are you using?

It appears that you are using an APS-C (1.5x crop) sensor body - is that correct? If so what make and model?

And you say you are usinga Sigma 15mm fisheye lens - is that corrcet?

If so that seems rather unusual becaiue a 15mm FE would be best suited to a fullframe sensor body not an APS-C sensor body.

Now looking further at your screenshot you will see that ASPG is treating your 15mm fisheye lens as a standard/rectlinear lens - why? Because it assumes that anything over 14mm (I think that's the'cut-off')) is a standard/rectilinear lens and not a fisheye lens.

Then there appears to be a difference between the type of colour correction applied in each case.

So there are things to correct in APG and with the Panoneed configuration I think.

Last edited by mediavets (2013-03-16 17:56:53)

geko5766 wrote:

Now I corrected the settings for my Sigma 15mm FE (180° for FullFrame = ca 122° on APS-C) and I just tried to stictc it. Free it works fine, but look into the xml-import.

The point is you use a fullframe fisheye on DX. Even if you can calculate the differing angles: APG´s fisheye-lens model wouldn´t match.
A friend of mine tried to use his 15mm Canon FE on his old Canon 10D camera. No way.

The Panoneed works fine with the PapyWizard XML import. Nevertheless as it is with ALL xml imports: the problem is the optimization.

I used the import without optimization - and i twas near perfect. Another time i optimized heavily and it got worse and worse.

We need to KNOW - instead of guessing - what the three optimization modes light, mid, strong really do and when it´s wise to use the one or the other.

Thanks to Alexandre´s little tutorial he wrote on my issue a year ago i learned how to handle things. But i still don´t KNOW which item is doing what in DETAIL.

Due to my working with 35mm indoors for spheres it usually is very complicated to get real good stitches witrhout xml - because of the narrow fov indoors you have lots of white walls and ceilings without structures.

What i learned from using the Panoneed as well as Seitz VR2 and Dr. Clauss Rodeon: they all can´t compensate any error the user makes . .
You even have to care about the correct settings at least as carefully as you do with a manual head.

In my eyes - and that´s a strictly personal view - i prefer the Panoneed above the other heads. It´s not really an elegant device but a functional one and to a reasonable price.
It has no external boxes attached - aside from the controller - all batteries and motors are built into the horizontal and vertical arms. This way they´re well protected and they´re out of the way. 4 accus guarantee about 3000 moves/shots.

Some days ago i had a shooting in a designer´s place and had to use 3 focus planes. I started the head three times with a different focus-setting each time.
All three layers of sharpness needed 7 steps of bracketing. This isn´t possible without XML - the stritcher finds different CPs on each layer . . and you never get them to match.

So i used one xml for all 3 focus planes - 47 positions x 3 focus layers with 7 exposures on each position = 3 x 329 shots. You can´t do that without XML.

My shooting strategy/technique sometimes is somewhat strange to most people - so it´s a big advantage when the developer lives nearby or can solve problems individually very quick via email.

best, Klaus

geko5766 wrote:

Hello all,

first of all, I think this is a good place to promote a new  automized panohead. It is the PANONEED, developed by Josef Graessle, part of this forum and community.

I received this wonderful piece of equipment this week and my first impressions are: It is build like a tank, it is fast, reliable and , althoughmot really a bargain, worth each penny. It is a great tool, please do not hesitate to stop by at his site: www.typeandcolour.de.

I just ordered this same panohead from Josef last week, it will be the first shipped to the U.S. I can't wait for it to arrive! :-)

mediavets wrote:

klausesser wrote:

here´s a Panoneed-PW XML:

Code:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<papywizard version="a">
    <header>
        <general>
            <title>
             Start 16:37:54 07.03.2013  End 16:41:19 07.03.2013 
            </title>
            <gps>
                                      
            </gps>
            <comment>
                Generated by PANONEED       
            </comment>
        </general>
        <shooting mode="sphere">
            <headOrientation>
                up
            </headOrientation>
            <cameraOrientation>
               portrait 
            </cameraOrientation>
            <stabilizationDelay>
                0.5
            </stabilizationDelay>
            <startTime>
              16:37:54 07.03.2013   
            </startTime>
            <endTime>
              16:41:19 07.03.2013   
            </endTime>
        </shooting>
        <camera>
            <timeValue>
                1.0
            </timeValue>
            <bracketing intent="exposure" nbPicts="001"/>
            <sensor coef="1.0" ratio="1.5"/>
        </camera>
        <lens type="rectilinear">
            <focal>
                35.0         
            </focal>
        </lens>
        <preset name="              "/>
    </header>
    <shoot>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0001">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+000.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0002">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+036.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0003">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+072.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0004">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+108.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0005">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+144.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0006">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+180.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0007">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+216.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0008">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+252.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0009">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+288.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0010">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-058.7" roll="90.0" yaw="+324.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0011">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+332.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0012">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+304.6"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0013">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+276.9"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0014">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+249.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0015">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+221.5"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0016">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+193.8"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0017">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+166.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0018">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+138.5"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0019">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+110.7"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0020">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+083.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0021">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+055.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0022">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+027.7"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0023">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="-017.5" roll="90.0" yaw="+000.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0024">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+000.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0025">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+027.7"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0026">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+055.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0027">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+083.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0028">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+110.7"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0029">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+138.5"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0030">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+166.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0031">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+193.8"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0032">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+221.5"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0033">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+249.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0034">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+276.9"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0035">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+304.6"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0036">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+023.8" roll="90.0" yaw="+332.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0037">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+324.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0038">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+288.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0039">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+252.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0040">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+216.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0041">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+180.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0042">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+144.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0043">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+108.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0044">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+072.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0045">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+036.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0046">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+065.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+000.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0047">
            <time>
                                    
            </time>
            <position pitch="+090.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+000.0"/>
        </pict>
    </shoot>
</papywizard>

Thanks you - that's nicely formatted.

But that's not what was posted here:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p113188-toda … 41#p113188

Hence my misunderstanding.

Yes - i see! It´s the same code basically - but Geko postet it the wrong way i guess.

best to you, Klaus

mediavets wrote:

Good. I don't think I am so uninformed. As you know I was quite closely involved in the development of Papywizard, and I am merely comparing Panoneed generated XML data files with the documented standard for Papywizard-compatible XML format data files.

Right. But the PapyWizard importer for APG actually isn´t the same one in which you were involved developing.
The importer only uses some few basics items for the import and ingnores others.

Josef communicated with the Kolor guys some time ago to pin down which informations in the code are really taken by APG.

The TC works with XML on Merlin as well as on Panoneed. Importing with skipping the optimization results in a near-perfect stitch.
Using the optimizer sometimes makes it worse again.

That´s not related to the XML but is a "feature" of the optimizer.

Actual versions of PTGui use the PapyWizard import also - and work extremely well. The PTGui´s optimizer does perfectly - you can "fine-tune" it
in all details.

best, Klaus

klausesser wrote:

mediavets wrote:

Good. I don't think I am so uninformed. As you know I was quite closely involved in the development of Papywizard, and I am merely comparing Panoneed generated XML data files with the documented standard for Papywizard-compatible XML format data files.

Right. But the PapyWizard importer for APG actually isn´t the same one in which you were involved developing.

Read my lips (to quote George Bush Jnr) I didn't say I was involved with the development of the Papywizard Import wizard. As I recall Kolort did that with barely any consultation with Frederic or anyone else.

The importer only uses some few basics items for the import and ignors others.

Josef communicated with the Kolor guys some time ago to pin down which informations in the code are really taken by APG.

I know that. In my opinion it could make use of much more and might work better if it did; but things have changed over time in that it does now read the focal value from the XML data and compare it with the value in the EXIF data which it did not in earlier versions.

And it is possible that future versions of the APP/APG Papywizard Import wizard may make use of more XML file data.

So why not generate files that do comply with the standard? Or request changes to the standard to enable you to do what you wish?

That's what standards are all about - something either complies or it doesn't - as they say you can't be half pregnant.

I didn't say that the XML data files generated by Panoneed and the Touch controller don't work with the current Papywizard Import wizard; I said they don't appear to comply with the documented standard.

The TC works with XML on Merlin as well as on Panoneed. Importing with skipping the optimization results in a near-perfect stitch. Using the optimizer sometimes makes it worse again.

That´s not related to the XML but is a "feature" of the optimizer.

True, but that's a rather subtle distinction for the typical user who expects the use of the Papywizard Import wizard and Papywizard-compatible XML data files to enable APP/APG to produce a perfect stitch automatically.

And it doesn't. Which is rather disappointing after all these years of development.

Actual versions of PTGui use the PapyWizard import also - and work extremely well. The PTGui´s optimizer does perfectly - you can "fine-tune" it in all details.

Which seems to reinforce the observation that APP/APG doesn't use the XML data as effectively as it could?!

geko5766 wrote:

I use the Sigma15mm indeed on a APS-C , namely the Pentax K-5 IIs. I like it very much, as it is tack sharp. And yes, I am astonished too, that I have to import not as fish eye but as a standard lens.

I don't think you have to import as standard lens? I think it's more the case that APP/APG assumes it's standard lens because of the 15mm focal length.

It works fine like that, with standard settings only. But it is as Klaus says, a FE on FF is different to FE on APS-C. What counts to me is, that it works.

I cannot imagine why you chose a 15mm FE for use with a cropped sensor body, but...

However ... A fisheye is a fisheye regardless of the sensor crop.

Nevertheless, using the panoneed is joy, as the positions are perfect. But it has to work too, if you do a gigapixel sphere. And that does not work and seems that the import module doesn´t work correctly. I hope that this will be fixed asap!

Did you not say it worked well with APP/APG 2.6.4 but not with APP/APG 3.0.4/3.0.5?

For Klaus: I can clearly understand Andrew´s point. It seems logical and useful that , once a standard is set, apllications should be complant to that. But I am convinced, Josef will handle that.

But I think that is no reason to start a fight upon.

Klaus and I have enjoyed some friendly sparring for years. 

Last edited by mediavets (2013-03-16 21:49:08)

mediavets wrote:

And it is possible that future versions of the APP/APG Papywizard Import wizard may make use of more XML file data.

Yes - George B. . . . ah, Andrew.

mediavets wrote:

So why not generate files that do comply with the standard? Or request changes to the standard to enable you to do what you wish?

Well - there may come aliens the next week . . I prefer to deal with what is instead of with what may come some day.

mediavets wrote:

That's what standards are all about - something either complies or it doesn't - as they say you can't be half pregnant.

I see - but: PapyWizard-is-not-a-standard. You claimed yourself that Kolor doesn´t see it as a standard and use it as they like.

mediavets wrote:

I didn't say that the XML data files generated by Panoneed and the Touch controller don't work with the current Papywizard Import wizard; I said they don't appear to comply with the documented standard.

The TC works with XML on Merlin as well as on Panoneed. Importing with skipping the optimization results in a near-perfect stitch. Using the optimizer sometimes makes it worse again.

That´s not related to the XML but is a "feature" of the optimizer.

mediavets wrote:

True, but that's a rather subtle distinction for the typical user who expects the use of the Papywizard Import wizard and Papywizard-compatible XML data files to enable APP/APG to produce a perfect stitch automatically.
And it doesn't. Which is rather disappointing after all these years of development.

There´s a big misunderstanding as i see it: in the more complex regions of pano-shooting NOTHING is "automatically". You need to know what you do and you need to know your hard- and software.

Actual versions of PTGui use the PapyWizard import also - and work extremely well. The PTGui´s optimizer does perfectly - you can "fine-tune" it in all details.

mediavets wrote:

Which seems to reinforce the observation that APP/APG doesn't use the XML data as effectively as it could?!

It rather seems that it´s not the import but - as i stated several times - it seems to happen AFTER the import: in the optimizer-stage.

best, Klaus

mediavets wrote:

Klaus and I have enjoyed some friendly sparring for years. 

Right!

And a lot of consensus - not to forget!

best, Klaus

Klaus,

(I did not reed all Posts above, so sorry when doubleposting...)

#1) Panoneed´s XML comes in the same format as PW´s xml. I can post it here in the correct format as it come from the device.

this is not true in fact.

my T&C handcontroller (V. 2.4.0) used with the Merlin does create XML files with Header: <papywizard version="a">
Georg's XML code from panoneed contains the same HEader: <papywizard version="a">
and PW does create XML code with Header: : <papywizard version="c">


I've no clue if there're other differences than this Version a :: c difference or if this does get interpreted by autopano at all...

would be nice - if there are any other differences - that the TC handcontroller and the panoneed Controller get updated to avoid any inconsistences....
Georg

Last edited by gkaefer (2013-03-16 23:58:25)

mediavets wrote:

That's not the same thing at all. The standard is the recording format of the data, not how some or all of the data may be used.. Whether Kolor or anyone else chooses not to use all the possible data values has nothing to do with the standard format of content of the file.

Andrew - again: WHAT is "the standard"?
When Kolor reads out only a fraction rom the xml and ignores others: is that "standard"?
When Kolor changes the way they read out the xml without communicating the change: is that "standard"?
WHAT is "standard"?
WHERE is documented HOW APG´s import-module interpretes PapyWizard-XML? WHICH xml-parts are used, which are ignored?

mediavets wrote:

Now considering the functionality of the Papywizard Import wizard...
The original poster cites a case where not using the Import wizard results in an excellent stitch automatically, but using the Import wizard results in garbage.

Well - the OP simply made a mistake handling it.

mediavets wrote:

To me this suggests that there's a problem somewhere in the process 'chain' between importing the images via the wizard and the completion of the stitch.

Right - APG interpretes PW´s xml in a somewhat clandestinbe way . .

mediavets wrote:

I feel that providing the stitcher with the shotting position co-ordinates data should enable APP/APG to produce a better stitch not a worse one.

As long as you don´t make a mistake handling it.

Minutes ago i tested the xml import with a shooting using my 35mm lens on Panoneed: it´s very good in APG 3.0.5 from the start. RMS around 2 initially,
carefully optimizimng leads to 1.3 in the end. No visible errors after about 15min of work.

Yesterday i did a stitch in APG 3.0.5 using 47x7 images - 47 positions of 7 steps bracketing. Worked perfectly - the stich needed only minor optimization.
The result was excelent.
But in the end i decided not to go this way: rendering to .hdr took hours and hours on the PC. I´m much faster using HDR/Tonemapping first and stitching one image per position afterwards - doing it on my Mac.

But it showed me: stitching 7 steps bracketed images in APG works better than ever using the version 3.0.5.

best, Klaus