Hi Destiny,
That for that. That's in fact what I currently do too. The problem I find with it is that when you tonemap the images, you have to check each fused one first before feeding them to apg. I obviously save tonemap settings in Photomatix and then run the same settings for all images so that I end up with a set of fused images that have the same tonemap settings applied. That said, even this at times produces undesired results (since a panorama spans a large angle, the exposures can vary drastically). Tonemapping the entire panorama from three source panoramas (e.g. -2EV, 0EV, 2EV) might allow me to better judge the tonemapping settings I should apply or, in some cases, allow me to manually layer in photoshop instead (if I see that I done't like the hdr results)...

Thanks,
Joe

Thanks Destiny,
Yes what you do is exactly what I do. I use the batch process in photomatix. I just thought I'd ask if it's possible to do it the other way round. As you said, if you stitch three panoramas (i.e. different exposures) independantly, then there will likely be a mismatch. I guess I was asking if there's a way to over come that...e.g. by forcing autopano to stitch images x,y,z in the same exact manner as a,b,c so you end up with two panos that align perfectly...

I'm guessing it's not possible. Maybe it would be a nice feature to have...

Joe

Mine is a D90 so only 3 I'm afraid. I'm jealous of your D800 :-).

The whole reason for this question really is that I use some of the techniques described here: http://www.stuckincustoms.com/hdr-tutorial-part-3/ for normal (non panorama) hdr. In other words, after I process a file with photomatix, I then layer it on top of the original in photoshop and carry out some adjustments using layers/masking etc. Of course, this is not possible for me to do with a panorama since I have no 'original' panorama to layer the tonemapped panorama with...

Joe

Hey, the D90 is a great camera, I love my D90, and you can cheat on the EVs.. When in RAW out put your 3 images at the EV you have set but then change it in RAW 2 EVs up or down depending on what you are wanting.. Now you will have 5 to 6 images... You can do it again stepping it the other way.. I have done this an it works.. Not the very best option but since you only have 3 bracketed image option with the D90 its an option but you can also use software too. You can get up to about 15 bracketed shots I think with software.. You just need a laptop with the software hooked up...

Destiny...

PS.. Your are right to be jealous of my D800, its AMAZING.. Love it love it love. love it!!!.

joeborg wrote:

(since a panorama spans a large angle, the exposures can vary drastically). Tonemapping the entire panorama from three source panoramas (e.g. -2EV, 0EV, 2EV) might allow me to better judge the tonemapping settings I should apply or, in some cases, allow me to manually layer in photoshop instead (if I see that I done't like the hdr results)...

Hey Joe!

I definitely see your problem - facing it myself each time i do it (which means almost every day). I tried to handle it the way you named - other issues can rise then: as example slightly differenceys in the layers which make it hard afterwards to get a clean mapping.
The ways to go in my opinion are:
1) each time to test more than one  set of images to find the best common settings - which usually works very well with me, or
2) to find out how to achive 3 or more optimal matching layers for mapping afterwards. That´s what i´m evaluating actually - because you have indeed better control for the result of the mapping.
Another reason is: i sometimes need "native" .HDR resp .EXR files for the use as ImageBasedLighting in Maya and Maxwell.

I didn´t care much about stitching bracketed layers - but i´m digging into it actually. It must work - no question.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser (2012-11-12 16:36:43)

Thanks Klaus,
It seems you do have my same exact problem. As you said, wanting a .hdr file for the entire pano is yet another good reason. Do let me know if you come up with a solution...

The closest I've come is through reading this: http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/ … ng_Stacks. That said, I never got it to work as it seems it needs brackets based on shutter priority which doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I shoot my brackets in aperture priority so as to keep DoF consistent amongst the exposures...

Joe

joeborg wrote:

That said, I never got it to work as it seems it needs brackets based on shutter priority which doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

The only priority wich really is essential is: NEVER use ANY kind of automatic on the camera Edit: (when shooting panos)

Manual focus.
Manual aperture.
Manual speed.
Manual WB.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser (2012-11-12 17:26:17)

marzipano wrote:

I think the results in APG should be better than I'm currently getting and my belief is that the main problem is the documentation rather than the product itself. It feels rather like the blind leading the partially sighted at present

Hi Martin!

I definitely agree!

best, Klaus

Joe.. HDR is high dynamic range.. you cannot get true HDR using just 3 brakted shots.. In saying that, you can still put 3 image into software and use the HDR feature, but the output is not true HDR.. You can use 3 images for LDR fusion of images.. Low dynamic range and achieve great results... Even your tutorial uses 5 images for HDR.. From all I have read, 5 EV stops if the minimum for true HDR...

Also, apg 2.6 is fine.. There is more options with fusion of images though in V3... Give it a try out.. You can download the trial.. It has some useful features for viewing.

Destiny..

I tried what you suggest here, it works well as long as nothing moves.. and yes, 5 Shots +  per stack does provide the best results.. I have never gotten a great result in HDR using just 3 shots with my D90... Its ok'ish but 5 stack shots make a huge difference when just 3 are used....

Destiny..

joeborg wrote:

Hmm...
I'm a little confused now :S

1. Is APG 3.0 out or is that a beta release? I'm on 2.6.4...
2. I'm not sure I follow what you mean when you say ' the start point for each bracketed set in a multi-image pano is determined individually for each image". To clarify, I usually lock down iso and aperture (i.e. shoot in aperture priority) so that the camera is allowed to vary shutter speed within the bracketed set. I take it there's a better way but shooting in full manual more and setting everything? Why is this better and what does the camera vary if everything is locked down (i.e. so as to obtain the difference in exposure for one given set of brackets)?

Thanks!

Joe

1.Yes Beta 3 but seems pretty stable. I couldn't get 2.6.4 to bracket anything as I mentioned but I believe others had more luck. I'd def. give 3.0 a try though as it also has more specific fusion functions

2. Sorry maybe my explanation was a bit unclear. In a group of (say) 6 pano images bracketed in 3's (i.e. 6x3). Before I applied the CHDK hack I could use Aperture or Shutter priority and specify the +/- EV to apply. So for (say) Aperture set at F4 the 1st bracketed image set might be (for +/- 1EV) 1/150, 1/300, 1/75. However the camera would take a new reading on the 2nd bracketed image set so it might be 1/400, 1/800, 1/200 and so on for the rest of the images . With the CHDK hack I can (and do) specify a fixed aperture AND shutter speed so I would end up with everything at F4 and every set of images at (say) 1/150, 1/300 and 1/75. As I said I use the "Always create stacks with N images" option for this - I use 5 images per set

does this help ?

best
Martin

Last edited by marzipano (2012-11-12 21:13:07)

Hi All,
Many thanks Destiny for pointing me to the trial download. I hadn't realised that version 3 was also available. Might try that...

As for HDR, well the reason that tutorial (stuckincustoms) is based on 5 exposures is as per: "Turn on Autobracketing. If you have 3 pics in the autobracket, set it up at -2, 0, +2. On my Nikon D3x, I usually take 5 pics at -2, -1, 0, 1, +2. I’d prefer just to take 3 pics at -2, 0, and +2, but this camera only steps by 1. I think you will find this +2 to -2 range satisfactory for 95% of situations. An exception, for example, would be shooting the interior of a house that is extremely dark and there are windows where the outside is extremely bright."

My understanding is that it's not the amount of pics that makes up the dynamic range but rather, the range of EV you cover with the pics you have. For example, on my D90 I can shoot a bracket of 3 photos at -2EV, 0EV and +2EV. Now, most DSLR cameras would have a dynamic range of around 12EV (Destiny's D800 will be slightly better than that ;-)). That effectively means that the three files combined give me a range of (at least) 16EV. Even if I were able to shoot 5 images with 1EV spacing, I'd still ultimately end up with 16EV so the end result is the same...

The only thing I'm not sure of (but I'll try an experiment some time soon) is whether adjusting the exposure further (e.g. setting my -2EV file a further -2EV in software and my +2EV file a further +2EV in software) of the source images before running photomatix actually increases dynamic range or not. In other words, do I now have a 20EV dynamic range or did the software trick do nothing? My inclination is to think it's the latter. In other words, I think that photomatix is intelligent enough so that if you feed it a source file that's RAW or a 16-bit tiff, it can 'dig out' that extra exposure information contained in such files without you having to adjust the exposure of the source files beforehand. So, I would think that these two would produce the same results:

- 3 source images as 16-bit tiffs from the original raw files at -2EV, 0EV and 2EV.
- 5 source images as 8-bit tiffs. The 1st 8-bit tiff is the -2EV raw file set to a further -2EV in software, the next three are the raw files unmodified and output directly as 8-bit tiffs and the last 8-bit tiff is the 2EV file set to a further +2EV and output as and output as an 8-bit tiff.

Apologies if the above is unclear Destiny. Feel free to question it further. The basic point I'm trying to make is that a raw file (12/14bit) or a 16-bit tiff file has the added exposure information that photomatix can make use of; I don't think you need to manually add output images at different exposure levels set in software.

Martin, understood :-). Essentially it's equivalent to either full manual (I take it your camera doesn't allow this?) or else holding down the exposure lock between different sets of exposures (i.e. so they all have the same shutter speed and aperture). I've never tried this before for bracketing; I've always used aperture priority (read: I've not noticed what the disadvantage may be of having different shutter speeds between sets of exposures?). I'll see what my camera does in full manual mode and AEB set if you say it produces better results.

Thanks all for the very interesting discussion (so far) :-). Might this be something worth submitting as a feature request? In my stupidity, I think it shouldn't be something too difficult to implement. What we're after is a feature that somehow allows you to save all the control points from one run and apply the same exact control points (blindly) to a different run. E.g. Tell the software to treat image 6 like image 1 (in the stitch), image 7 like 2, image 8 like 3 etc without doing any recalulation (simply apply the control points from the previously saved project used to stitch 1 to 5).

Joe

Hi Joe...

My first HDR efforts are at this link below, which I achieved using my D90 at -2, 0, +2 EV.. At the time I thought they were great but now I can be critical of my own work... The effect I do not like about using just 3 shots with HDR is the halo glow effect around the edges and the strange artificialness of the images.. When I used 5 a while back and it began to look much more pleasing.. I need time to play with 7+ with +/- 3/5 EV's...

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/DPSn … hy-service

Destiny...