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#1 2012-05-02 12:33:32

RT-Visualization
Member
Registered: 2012-05-02
Posts: 13

Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

Hello everyone,
I just recently discovered this amazing software and I must say that is quite usefull

Since I would like to buy Autopano Pro and Panotour I'm testing it, but i would like to ask you some questions since you know better than me what could be the solution to my problems, since I would like to achieve a good spherical panoramas.

I'm not using professional equipment at the moment, so my "specs" are a Fujifilm S3200 ( with no special lens ) and a standard tripod ( modified so I can rotate the head with a proper angle )

Basically I'm placing myself at the center of the room and I start to take the pictures, rotating the head by 30°, so after 12 shot I have a full 360° horizontal panoramic image...
Since I don't have a fisheye lens I need to take pictures of the "upper" and "lower" part of the panorama in order to have a spherical image...and here is how I do that:
I rotate "up" the head by 30° so I can shoot another 12 pictures of the "upper part of the panorama"...I repeat the same process, that is to rotate the head again by 30°, same thing for the "down" panorama...
I hope that the explanation is clear...anyway from the pictures you can see that the shots are the "lower" part panorama

Those are some shots and you can see why the results are bad in most cases

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/848/98597243.jpg/
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/333/75765442.jpg
http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/564/32294411.jpg

(The pictures are taken from the folder that Panotour create when the virtual tour is created, but you get the idea what's wrong, if I can I'll upload directly the 360° image )
Now I know that without any professional equipment I can't pretend that the pictures are stitched together perfectly but I would like some suggestions from you, since usually when I create a 360° panorama there are only few parts that are bad stitched, while everything else is fine...

So, without any professional equipment is there a better workflow than the one I described that allows me to make good spherical panorama?
Do I need to reduce the angle between the pictures?
Any advice/tutorial/suggestion is welcome wink

Thanks in advance

Nicolas

Last edited by RT-Visualization (2012-05-02 12:35:53)

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#2 2012-05-02 12:59:03

mediavets
Moderator
From: Isleham, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Registered: 2007-11-14
Posts: 9714
Website

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

Welcome to the forum...

If you have 25-30% overlap between adajacent images then the stitching errors are most likely due to parallax issues.

When shooting interior sphericals it's very important to position the camera at the NPP (No Parallax Point) and to be able to maintain that NPP when pitching the camera up and down for multiple rows.

This requires a proper pano head - either a DIY or a commercial pano head. I don't know how you have modified your tripod but it would appear the modification is inadequate.

A DIY approach: http://www.peterloud.co.uk/nodalsamurai … murai.html

Some commercial panoheads:

Nodal Ninja 3: http://www.nodalninja.com/products/pano … inja3.html

Panosaurus 2.0: http://gregwired.com/pano/Pano.htm

It seems your cameras shortest fovcal length is 24mm (35mm equiv) that's quite along focal length for shooting interiors spehrical panos, meaning a relatively small Field Of View (FOV) requiring many images for 360x180 coverage, meaning more seams between images increasing the chance of stitching errors and also increasing the chance of 'featureless' images (such as plain white walls/ceilings) which defeat APP/APGs automatic control point detection and are left out of the stitch.

On the other hand you are not likely to have much problem shooting and stitching outdoor partial panos (panos with FOV of less than 360x180 degrees) of scenes with nothing too close to the camera where parallax issue don't arise.

Last edited by mediavets (2012-05-02 13:10:00)


Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.

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#3 2012-05-02 14:04:43

RT-Visualization
Member
Registered: 2012-05-02
Posts: 13

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

Thanks for the answer mediavets,

I notice too that interiors have those issues and I tought that the camera lens could be the problem, and now I'm sure it is, while exteriors are quite good.

Right now I'm thinking to get the Panogear and a Nikon D5100, could you please suggest me a proper fisheye for this?

Sorry about the questions but I'm not an expert

Thanks again

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#4 2012-05-02 15:42:49

mediavets
Moderator
From: Isleham, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Registered: 2007-11-14
Posts: 9714
Website

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

RT-Visualization wrote:

Thanks for the answer mediavets,

I notice too that interiors have those issues and I tought that the camera lens could be the problem, and now I'm sure it is, while exteriors are quite good.

Right now I'm thinking to get the Panogear and a Nikon D5100, could you please suggest me a proper fisheye for this?

Sorry about the questions but I'm not an expert

Thanks again

If you are mainly (only?) going to shoot with fisheye lens then I'd recommend a manual pano head rather than the Panogear robotic pano head.

Robotic pano heads are of most benefit when shooting med-high res. partial panos using longer focal length rectilinear (non-fisheye) lenses requiring tens or even hundreds of images.

Fisheye (FE) lens you might consider include:

The Nikkor 10.5mm FE

The Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE

The Tokina 10-17mm zoom FE.

The Samyang 8mm Nikon AE model FE.


Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.

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#5 2012-05-02 16:50:35

RT-Visualization
Member
Registered: 2012-05-02
Posts: 13

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

Basically I will use the camera with FE lens just for interior shots ( apartments, hotels, bars, pubs, and so on ) in order to have a spherical panoramic image to be used on a website using both Autopano Pro to stitch the image and Panotour to create the swf
So I suppose that the panogear ( as shown in the video ) is useful mainly for outdoor shots ( I suppose ) and the manual head will be fine

Thanks for the advices and the FE lens suggestions

Cheers

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#6 2012-05-02 17:11:28

mediavets
Moderator
From: Isleham, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Registered: 2007-11-14
Posts: 9714
Website

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

RT-Visualization wrote:

Basically I will use the camera with FE lens just for interior shots ( apartments, hotels, bars, pubs, and so on ) in order to have a spherical panoramic image to be used on a website using both Autopano Pro to stitch the image and Panotour to create the swf

OK. Interior spherical panos are probably the most challenging type of panos. Expect to spend some time learning before you achieve really good results. Relatively dimly lit interiors with mixed lighting sources vs. very bright ambient day light outside windows pose particular problems.

I would recommend you choose Panotour pro over Panotour which is very much more restricted in capability - not least  Panotour Pro offers the ability to create iDevice-compatible tours as well as Flash tours.

So I suppose that the panogear ( as shown in the video ) is useful mainly for outdoor shots ( I suppose ) and the manual head will be fine

If you plan also to shoot outdoor med-high res. partial panos with longer focal elmgth leses ona regular basis then consider the Panogear system. Otherwise I suggest you stick with a manual pano head, which will be quicker to setup and use and will have a smaller nadir 'footprint'. I have an Nodal Ninja 5L manual pano head and a Merlin/Panogear robotic pano head system and I would always use the NN5 to shoot panos with a FE lens.

The Nodal Ninja 3 serieswith an RD-series rorator would be a reasonable choice for use with a D5100 DSLR and FE lens, but wouldn't handle longer focal length lenses. Or if you can still find one consider the Nodal Ninja 5 series (Factory Irregulars) which would probably handle just about any camera/lens combo you'll be likely to use.
...

BTW where in world are you located. A knowledge of location can influence equipemnt recommendations.

Last edited by mediavets (2012-05-02 17:12:27)


Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.

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#7 2012-05-02 21:06:57

RT-Visualization
Member
Registered: 2012-05-02
Posts: 13

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

mediavets wrote:

RT-Visualization wrote:

Basically I will use the camera with FE lens just for interior shots ( apartments, hotels, bars, pubs, and so on ) in order to have a spherical panoramic image to be used on a website using both Autopano Pro to stitch the image and Panotour to create the swf

OK. Interior spherical panos are probably the most challenging type of panos. Expect to spend some time learning before you achieve really good results. Relatively dimly lit interiors with mixed lighting sources vs. very bright ambient day light outside windows pose particular problems.

I would recommend you choose Panotour pro over Panotour which is very much more restricted in capability - not least  Panotour Pro offers the ability to create iDevice-compatible tours as well as Flash tours.

So I suppose that the panogear ( as shown in the video ) is useful mainly for outdoor shots ( I suppose ) and the manual head will be fine

If you plan also to shoot outdoor med-high res. partial panos with longer focal elmgth leses ona regular basis then consider the Panogear system. Otherwise I suggest you stick with a manual pano head, which will be quicker to setup and use and will have a smaller nadir 'footprint'. I have an Nodal Ninja 5L manual pano head and a Merlin/Panogear robotic pano head system and I would always use the NN5 to shoot panos with a FE lens.

The Nodal Ninja 3 serieswith an RD-series rorator would be a reasonable choice for use with a D5100 DSLR and FE lens, but wouldn't handle longer focal length lenses. Or if you can still find one consider the Nodal Ninja 5 series (Factory Irregulars) which would probably handle just about any camera/lens combo you'll be likely to use.
...

BTW where in world are you located. A knowledge of location can influence equipemnt recommendations.

Autopano seems straight forward, but I notice that there are lots of options to tweak, I didn't expect to just plug the shots and have a spherical panorama, so I'm going to test it properly with the equipment that I have now

About the bracket I would probably build one by myself, it seems not so sofisticated, so a support like that, taking into account the weight of the camera, could be done properly with a little effort.

I'm in the center of Italy

As I said I would like to provide a different kind of service rather than the usual pictures that you see if you're looking for a flat or choosing an hotel room, so Autopano+Panotour seems the perfect choice to do this job

Anyway I will keep testing with my own equipment until I'll decide to buy the camera and the FE lens, but since they're not so cheap I will wait a bit

Thanks again for the advices Mr Stephens

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#8 2012-05-02 21:46:03

mediavets
Moderator
From: Isleham, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Registered: 2007-11-14
Posts: 9714
Website

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

RT-Visualization wrote:

Autopano seems straight forward, but I notice that there are lots of options to tweak, I didn't expect to just plug the shots and have a spherical panorama, so I'm going to test it properly with the equipment that I have now

You'll be amazed at how much easier it is when you use a FE lens.

You can find some FE image sets on these web sites if you wish to try stitching them:

http://www.agnos.com/samples.htm?v_ling … SD03-M0302

http://www.360precision.com/360/index.c … nsinfolist

About the bracket I would probably build one by myself, it seems not so sofisticated, so a support like that, taking into account the weight of the camera, could be done properly with a little effort.

It's not too difficult to make a simple camera/lens combo specific pano head, as opposed to a general purpose fully adjustable adjustable pano head, althought it's somewhat more difficult if you wish to have a rotator with click stops.

I'm in the center of Italy

Then you may wish also to check out Agno's products:
http://www.agnos.com/index.html?v_lingu … 0638053015

The Italian retailer of Nodal Ninja products:
Mauro Contrafatto - Via Scite, 23 - 98124 Messina - Italy
Tel +39 090 2131233 - Fax +39 090 2131232 - Email info@360way.it
Partita IVA IT02936710835 - R.E.A. 203598

As I said I would like to provide a different kind of service rather than the usual pictures that you see if you're looking for a flat or choosing an hotel room, so Autopano+Panotour seems the perfect choice to do this job

Anyway I will keep testing with my own equipment until I'll decide to buy the camera and the FE lens, but since they're not so cheap I will wait a bit

Good luck - it's not easy to make a decent financial return from panoramic imaging especially in a global recession.


Andrew Stephens
Nikon D40, Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye, Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye, Nikkor 18-55/50/35mm lenses, Nodal Ninja 5 Lite, Nodal Ninja 4 with R-D16, Agno's MrotatorTCS short.
Nikon P5100, CP5000, CP995, FC-E8, WC-E63,WC-E68, TC-E2, Kaidan Kiwi 995, Bophoto pano bracket, Agno's MrotatorA.
Merlin/Orion robotic pano head + Papywizard on Nokia 770/N800/N810 and Windows 8/XP/2K.

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#9 2012-05-03 12:29:39

RT-Visualization
Member
Registered: 2012-05-02
Posts: 13

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

I think that I will start with those pictures in order to check the differences between FE shots and normal shots, so I can have a better understanding of whats going on...thanks for the links, I will give a try

As for the pano head I will try by myself, if the result is crappy I will think to buy one smile

Regarding the actual situation....well, in Italy things aren't so different from the rest of the world...well...here is probably worse, but I'm considering to do this service as a second job, since in a couple of months I will get the loan for the house...so if I can get more money out of my actual job it would be perfect...
The investment is around 1500-1800€, but before doing that I will try to make the best with the equipment I have, then I'll buy the professional equipment to have a faster workflow and better results

Thanks again for the advices wink

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#10 2012-05-03 14:53:24

klausesser
Member
From: Düsseldorf, Germany
Registered: 2006-05-22
Posts: 6405
Website

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

RT-Visualization wrote:

I think that I will start with those pictures in order to check the differences between FE shots and normal shots, so I can have a better understanding of whats going on

very simple: FEs have a wider FOV. That means a lesser amount of shots. THAT means lesser over-all resolution. cool

Example:

15mm FE on fullframe and 6 shots = around 15000x7500px.
35mm WA on fullframe and 48 shots = around 40000x20000px.

So usually a 15mm FE on a 21MPx fullframe is ideal for real estate - fast to shoot (about 2-3 min.) but very fine quality nevertheless.
If - IF - you need deeper zooming use a 35mm WA. But be aware it´s much more effort

Using a FE only i wouldn´t suggest the use of a motorized head - you don´t need it. But using 35mm WA and - longer lenses of course - i strongly reccomend a programmable head which writes XML.

best, Klaus


If you want something you´ve never had,
then you´ve got to do something you´ve never done.

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#11 2012-05-09 21:33:52

jeradg
Member
Registered: 2012-01-17
Posts: 101

Re: Best solution for non-fisheye spherical panorama

RT-Visualization wrote:

Thanks for the answer mediavets,

I notice too that interiors have those issues and I tought that the camera lens could be the problem, and now I'm sure it is, while exteriors are quite good.

Right now I'm thinking to get the Panogear and a Nikon D5100, could you please suggest me a proper fisheye for this?

Sorry about the questions but I'm not an expert

Thanks again

I have Nikon D5100, Bower 8mm F3.5 "for Nikon" Ultra-Wide fisheye lens, and it has been working for me although the lack of exif data has caused a little more work than if I had a lens that properly integrated with the camera. I am also using a tripod and nodal ninja 3II (which is really great).

So you can see the product of this equipment:
www.law.utulsa.edu/virtualtour

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