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Hello there,
I have problem with T&C handcontroller (Tokina 10-17mm FE on Canon 550D). From 10 to 14mm I am not able to shoot full 360x180 pano.
On 10mm it takes 6 photos at 0° and a zenith. But this is not covering full sphere panorama. On 14mm it takes the photos also at 0° and the nadir hole is much bigger.
Have I wrong setup of my lens or what?
Why it isn't possible to import XML presets into handcontroller? In many cases I find best results with 4x30° + 4x30° preset. It would be great to import PW presets.
(From 18mm strandard lens I have nothing against the HC counted patterns)
Last edited by FelixAutopano (2013-03-01 08:36:52)
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FelixAutopano wrote:
Hello there,
I have problem with T&C handcontroller (Tokina 10-17mm FE on Canon 550D). From 10 to 14mm I am not able to shoot full 360x180 pano.
On 10mm it takes 6 photos at 0° and a zenith. But this is not covering full sphere panorama. On 14mm it takes the photos also at 0° and the nadir hole is much bigger.
When you say 'this is not covering full sphere' do you mean you end up with holes in areas other than the nadir?
Have I wrong setup of my lens or what?
I don't have a T&C controller, but presumably the Angle diagonal will change with the focal length selected?
Perhaps you have selected the wrong value? How did you determine the value of 168 shown in the screenshot?
Why it isn't possible to import XML presets into handcontroller? In many cases I find best results with 4x30° + 4x30° preset. It would be great to import PW presets.
(From 18mm strandard lens I have nothing against the HC counted patterns)
Klauss Esser, a pro photographer who works closely with the designer of the T&C controller, claims it's not necessary to support such a feature - although I too have suggested that it might be desired by some users.
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When you say 'this is not covering full sphere' do you mean you end up with holes in areas other than the nadir?
When I render the 10mm pano it covers 360x159°.
Perhaps you have selected the wrong value? How did you determine the value of 168 shown in the screenshot?
http://lenshero.com/lens/Tokina-AT-X-10 … on-ef-lens
or better here
http://www.hdrlabs.com/tools/panocalc.html
Klauss Esser, a pro photographer who works closely with the designer of the T&C controller, claims it's not necessary to support such a feature - although I too have suggested that it might be desired by some users.
I think I realy need it. I want to select the pattern to fit my needs in given situation. When it isn't hard to implement - why not to do it?
T&C handcontroller wasn't cheap and I am not satisfied with the functions. For me it is now halfworking device 
(for rectilinear from 18mm I don't say a word).
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FelixAutopano wrote:
When you say 'this is not covering full sphere' do you mean you end up with holes in areas other than the nadir?
When I render the 10mm pano it covers 360x159°.
So what is the problem?
As I understand it, the T&C controller's calculated shooting patrtern for spheres is not designed to cover the full 189 VFOV because you have to address the issue of the nadir footprint of the Panogear/Merlin in some other way in any case.
Typically one would force the pano FOV to 360x180 in APP/APG and the choose some way to patch/edit the nadir 'hole' with your pereferred image editor perhaps using a seprateely shot nadir image; or you could choose to cover the nadir 'hole' with a mirror call or logo for on-line display, or limit the VFOV so that the nadir 'hole' cannot be seen when the pano is viewed on-line.
If you have Panotour Pro you can export cube faces to enable editing of the nadir.
If you have Pano2VR you can use the patch tool.
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FelixAutopano wrote:
Perhaps you have selected the wrong value? How did you determine the value of 168 shown in the screenshot?
http://lenshero.com/lens/Tokina-AT-X-10 … on-ef-lens
or better here
http://www.hdrlabs.com/tools/panocalc.html
If you want more overlap I guess you could enter a smaller value for each focal length setting?
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FelixAutopano wrote:
Klauss Esser, a pro photographer who works closely with the designer of the T&C controller, claims it's not necessary to support such a feature - although I too have suggested that it might be desired by some users.
I think I realy need it. I want to select the pattern to fit my needs in given situation. When it isn't hard to implement - why not to do it?
T&C handcontroller wasn't cheap and I am not satisfied with the functions. For me it is now halfworking device
You'll have to take that up with Kolor and/or T&C. I am not aware of any plans to add the ability to utilise Papywizard-style custom presets.
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FelixAutopano wrote:
When you say 'this is not covering full sphere' do you mean you end up with holes in areas other than the nadir?
When I render the 10mm pano it covers 360x159°.
Perhaps you have selected the wrong value? How did you determine the value of 168 shown in the screenshot?
http://lenshero.com/lens/Tokina-AT-X-10 … on-ef-lens
or better here
http://www.hdrlabs.com/tools/panocalc.htmlKlauss Esser, a pro photographer who works closely with the designer of the T&C controller, claims it's not necessary to support such a feature - although I too have suggested that it might be desired by some users.
I think I realy need it. I want to select the pattern to fit my needs in given situation. When it isn't hard to implement - why not to do it?
T&C handcontroller wasn't cheap and I am not satisfied with the functions. For me it is now halfworking device
You definitely don´t need any pre-defined pattern!! I use the controller for years now - with Merlin first nd actually with the Panoneed-head - believe me: i know very well what i say.
Besides: use an application to define a pattern - it´s the same pattern which the TC gives you anyway.
In the list i read that you defined ALL focal-lengths of your Tokina 10-17mm as fisheyes . . . That is nonsense of course.
Are you absolutely sure your 10-17mm@10mm is a fishye-lens at all? I don´t know the lens - will gather some information.
A can assure you: i NEVER had any issue with any of my 12 lenses using the TC. It can´t be done better than this. There absolutely is no need for a pre-defined pattern.
best, Klaus
P.S. you set 168° diagonal. Afaik the lens has 180° diagonal. So you use a wrong setting i guess.
Last edited by klausesser (2013-03-01 13:00:25)
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mediavets wrote:
FelixAutopano wrote:
Klauss Esser, a pro photographer who works closely with the designer of the T&C controller, claims it's not necessary to support such a feature - although I too have suggested that it might be desired by some users.
I think I realy need it. I want to select the pattern to fit my needs in given situation. When it isn't hard to implement - why not to do it?
T&C handcontroller wasn't cheap and I am not satisfied with the functions. For me it is now halfworking deviceYou'll have to take that up with Kolor and/or T&C. I am not aware of any plans to add the ability to utilise Papywizard-style custom presets.
Sorry to say that, Andrew: but you don´t know the controller at all. It is absolutly nonsense to talk about custom-style presets regarding this controller. You just need to understand what it does 
I´m using it now for several years first on Merlin and actually on the Panoneed-head. The controller works perfectly. No "custom-style preset" in the world would be able to do it better.
Believe me - i know what i´m talking about very well from experience, not by guessing.
best, Klaus
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klausesser wrote:
You definitely don´t need any pre-defined pattern!! I use the controller for years now - with Merlin first nd actually with the Panoneed-head - believe me: i know very well what i say.
Besides: use an application to define a pattern - it´s the same pattern which the TC gives you anyway.
As you know, there is usually more than one pattern that will cover the 360 x180. Whther this is 'rational' or not, Some users will favour one over another, based on their own experiences/preferences, sometimes depending on the nature of the scene.
I typically use one of two different patterns with a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye on a Nikon DX body depending on whether I'm shooting indoors or outdoors. I fidn that a pattern with two main rows produces a better stitch more consistently if shooting indoors and stitching with APG. In theory there should be no difference, but in practice there is.
In the list i read that you defined ALL focal-lengths of your Tokina 10-17mm as fisheyes . . . That is nonsense of course.
Are you absolutely sure your 10-17mm@10mm is a fishye-lens at all? I don´t know the lens - will gather some information.
It's a zoom fisheye, so will be a fisheye at all available focal lengths.
http://www.photozone.de/reviews/271-tok … est-report
P.S. you set 168° diagonal. Afaik the lens has 180° diagonal. So you use a wrong setting i guess.
As I recall it may be 180 diagnoal FOV on a 1.5x crop Nikon DX but I think it's 168 on a Canaon 1.6x crop APS-C sensor.
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FelixAutopano wrote:
I think I realy need it. I want to select the pattern to fit my needs in given situation. When it isn't hard to implement - why not to do it?
T&C handcontroller wasn't cheap and I am not satisfied with the functions. For me it is now halfworking device
From where would you get the "pattern"? From using a calculator. That´s what the TC does also . . .
You set 168° as diagonal fov. That´s too small for a 7-shot sphere.
The lens has 180° diagonal fov as i read. So setting the correct value would do a complete sphere. 168° can´t.
best, Klaus
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klausesser wrote:
Sorry to say that, Andrew: but you don´t know the controller at all. It is absolutly nonsense to talk about custom-style presets regarding this controller. You just need to understand what it does
I´m using it now for several years first on Merlin and actually on the Panoneed-head. The controller works perfectly. No "custom-style preset" in the world would be able to do it better.
Believe me - i know what i´m talking about very well from experience, not by guessing.
best, Klaus
I said at the outset that I didn't own a T&C controller.
I know it calculates what is reckoned to be an 'optimal' shooting pattern for spheres.
I know that, in theory, any pattern with adequate overlaps and covering the same FOV should stitch equally well using APP/APG (or PTGui for that matter).
But my experience is that some patterns stitch better than others depending on the nature of the scene if stitching with APP/APG (I can't speak about/for PTGui in this regard).
It may seem irrational and unnecessary to offer the ability to support Papywizard-style custom presets, but (and we've disagreed about this before) if some customers would like this feature, for whatever reason, why not offer it?
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mediavets wrote:
As I understand it, the T&C controller's calculated shooting patrtern for spheres is not designed to cover the full 189 VFOV because you have to address the issue of the nadir footprint of the Panogear/Merlin in some other way in any case.
Andrew - sorry again: but you´re making statements about something you definitely don´t know anything about!
The TC-controller OF COURSE calculates a pattern for a COMPLETE sphere - if you set it so. In sphere-mode it ALWAYS builds a full-sphere-pattern, my goodness. Whether you shoot a Nadir or not - the pattern is a full sphere.
It has a sphere-mode = full-sphere. It has an angle-mode = set it to, say, 90x45° and it makes a pattern for 90x45°. And it has a mosaic-mode for which it makes a pattern according to your start- and end-position.
This whole talking about "custom-style-paterns" is completely obsolete in terms of the TC..
best, Klaus
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mediavets wrote:
It may seem irrational and unnecessary to offer the ability to support Papywizard-style custom presets, but (and we've disagreed about this before) if some customers would like this feature, for whatever reason, why not offer it?
Do you use a pencil sharpener on a ball-pen? That´s like using "custom-style presets" with the TC.
best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser (2013-03-01 13:38:19)
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How do you generate a "custom-style preset"?
Please tell me.
best, Klaus
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klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
As I understand it, the T&C controller's calculated shooting patrtern for spheres is not designed to cover the full 189 VFOV because you have to address the issue of the nadir footprint of the Panogear/Merlin in some other way in any case.
Andrew - sorry again: but you´re making statements about something you definitely don´t know anything about!
The TC-controller OF COURSE calculates a pattern for a COMPLETE sphere - if you set it so. In sphere-mode it ALWAYS builds a full-sphere-pattern, my goodness. Whether you shoot a Nadir or not - the pattern is a full sphere.
It has a sphere-mode = full-sphere. It has an angle-mode = set it to, say, 90x45° and it makes a pattern for 90x45°. And it has a mosaic-mode for which it makes a pattern according to your start- and end-position.
Then I was mistaken. I recalled reading that the calculation of the 'optimal' shooting pattern for full spheres allowed for the nadir footprint of the Panogear/Merlin and didn't cover the entire nadir area.
I must have imagined that; although it would be rational because control points automatically placed on parts of the tripod and pano head at the nadir can sometimes result in stitch errors.
This whole talking about "custom-style-paterns" is completely obsolete in terms of the TC..
best, Klaus
We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue I think.
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mediavets wrote:
This whole talking about "custom-style-paterns" is completely obsolete in terms of the TC..
best, KlausWe'll have to agree to disagree on this issue I think.
Andrew: how do you generate a shooting-pattern? I guess you use some kind of calculator and do the maths, right?
You take in account the relevant values for the lens and the sensor as well as the overlap you like to use, right?
There are optimal relations and less optimal relations. Let´s say you choose the optimal relations to work with.
So your calculation gives you on the end a pattern whichis optimal for your camera/head/lens-setup.
The pattern you generate results from your calculations.
That´s the very same thing the TC does. So you HAVE a "custom-style preset": the TC calculates it basing on the very same informations
as you use to calculate it.
You even have influence on the way the TC calculates it: by selecting the overlap you want to use. Set it to 20% or to 25%, 30% or whatever you like.
THIS will have the largest impact on the pattern.
ALL the other items - focal, fov, sensor - have ONE optimal value. But the OVERLAP you can choose individually as you like it.
And this you can decide yourself by setting it on the touchscreen whenever you want.
Believe me: in real life AND also in theory "custom-style presets" are definitely, completely obsolete in terms of using the TC. The device calculates the optimal values strongly by the maths and gives you variability by choosing the overlap as you like for personal preferences.
There definitely is no better way to do it.
best, Klaus
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mediavets wrote:
Then I was mistaken. I recalled reading that the calculation of the 'optimal' shooting pattern for full spheres allowed for the nadir footprint of the Panogear/Merlin and didn't cover the entire nadir area.
I must have imagined that; although it would be rational because control points automatically placed on parts of the tripod and pano head at the nadir can sometimes result in stitch errors.
Let´s make one point clear: The head shoots in a way it uses the smallest down-look angle which is possible. This results in an extremely small Nadir-hole.
This angle is calculated individually for being optimal with each lens you have in the list. The calculation for this angle bases on the calculation to get a full-sphere in the end.
My english isn´t good enough for explaining technical details in every aspect precisely. I hope i could make clear what i mean.
Finally: look at the results. They are as perfect as it´s possible - when you use the setup correctly. The TC´s and the Panoneed´s precision which the TC makes possible is definitely higher than the results PW-custom-style presets can achieve!
best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser (2013-03-01 14:36:13)
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klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
This whole talking about "custom-style-paterns" is completely obsolete in terms of the TC..
best, KlausWe'll have to agree to disagree on this issue I think.
Andrew: how do you generate a shooting-pattern? I guess you use some kind of calculator and do the maths, right?
You take in account the relevant values for the lens and the sensor as well as the overlap you like to use, right?
Some calculators/custom preset genarators:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t16048-shoot … r-required
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t8100-papysp … es?id=8100
Alternatively you can create them manually from shooting patterns adopted from manual pano head use - as I did for you once or twice back in the day.
Some of those can be found here for fisheye and short(ish) focal length rectilinear lenses:
http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/
............
Regarding my own limited experience of the relatie merits of different patterns with same camera/lens/pano head for different types of scene.
With my Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye on a Nikon DX body, with NN5 or NN4 pano head, I use one of two patterns:
1. For outdoor scenes: 6-around at about -15 degrees and one or two 'zenith' shots at about +65 degrees.
2. For domestic scale indoor scenes: 6-around at about -15 degrees and 6-around at about +50 degrees.
I find thatfor domestic scale indoor scenes pattern 2 produces error free stitches far more consistently, using APP/APG, than pattern 1, which works fine for outdoor scenes.
I don't know why that should be; I assume it's something to do with the inner workings of APP/APG?
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mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue I think.
Andrew: how do you generate a shooting-pattern? I guess you use some kind of calculator and do the maths, right?
You take in account the relevant values for the lens and the sensor as well as the overlap you like to use, right?Some calculators/custom preset genarators:
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t16048-shoot … r-required
http://www.kolor.com/forum/t8100-papysp … es?id=8100
Alternatively you can create them manually from shooting patterns adopted from manual pano head use - as I did for you once or twice back in the day.
Some of those can be found here for short(ish) focal length lenses:
http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/
So - as a mater of fact they´re all basing on calculations, right? Calculations mean maths. There is only ONE math.
mediavets wrote:
............
Regarding my own limited experience of the relatie merits of different patterns with same camera/lens/pano head for different types of scene.
With my Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye on a Nikon DX body, with NN5 or NN4 pano head, I use one of two patterns:
1. For outdoor scenes: 6-around at about -15 degrees and one or two 'zenith' shots at about +65 degrees.
2. For domestic scale indoor scenes: 6-around at about -15 degrees and 6-around at about +50 degrees.
Pattern 2 produces error free stitches far more consistently, using APP/APG, for domestic scale indoor scenes than pattern 1, which works fine for outdoor scenes.
I don't know why that should be; I assume it's something to do with the inner workings of APP/APG?
Let aside APG: there is only ONE optimal setting for a setup. This optimal setting doesn´t differ whether you´re indoors or outdoors. What differs is the
using of focusing: outdoors you most likely have bigger distances and so you focus on didtant objects rather than on close-by objects.
It shoud be clear that it´s preferable to adjust the NPP differently when you shoot outdoors or indoors! And if you use a manual head it might be preferable
to use a different overlap shooting indoors or outdoors.
The stitcher assumes to get imgages shot using an optimal set-up. Depending on the stitcher´s algos it will be able to compensate not so optimal setups.
Here APG definitely does great.
But the basics of panorama-shooting must be in an optimal setup - basing on consequently done maths.
I realized that "custom-style patterns" are rarely as precise as the TC does it. You can make mistakes while calculating, you might misunderstand values or so . .
there are lots of possible errors.
The TC deals very precisely optimized only with relevant informations regarding what it´s built for. You can´t do it more precisely by generating a "custom-style"
preset - too many ways to make mistakes.
As i said before: the results speak for themselves.
best, Klaus
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Hallo FelixAutopano, I try to give you some answers.
1. The down angle of the Panogear is 70°, so the maximum vertical angle is 90°+70°=160° and the Nadir hole 40°. If you want more, you make multible pictures of the Panogear base without information. If you really want smaller Nadir holes, you must select another head. There are Heads with downangle 83°, which gives a Nadir hole of 14°, but you must elliminate the legs of your stand.
2. The calculated angles for your input you can see if you go to Angle Mode and one display ahead, then it showes the minimum angles for your selection. I just wrote in the figures for comparisons
f diagonal angle horiz. angle vert. angle number of pictures for 25% overlapping
10 168 93 139 6 plus zenit the down angle 139/2=69,5° I agree 0.5° are missing. 0.5° down would be perfect
11 157 87 130 2 rows each 6 plus zenit the controller uses the max. downangle, so it should be close to 160° too
12 146 81 121 2 rows each 6 plus zenit the controller uses the max. downangle, so it should be close to 160° to
13 136 75 113 2 rows each 7 plus zenit the controller uses the max. downangle, so it should be close to 160° to
14 125 14 69 2 rows each 7 plus zenit the controller uses the max. downangle, so it should be close to 160° to
15 114 63 94 2 rows each 8 plus zenit the controller uses the max. downangle, so it should be close to 160° to
17 92 51 76 3 rows each9 plus zenit the controller uses the max. downangle, so it should be close to 160° to
I took your diagonal angles and your camera sensor size, if they are wrong the results will be too. As I guess, you expected to make 180° vertical, but with the Panogear it makes no sense to make more than 160, as this is the maximum. The f=10 is just at the limit for one row in portrait orientation, so it can be used for fast and lower resolution sphares, the overlapping is appr. 25%.The other have larger overlapping, but you need more rows to have more than 25%.
Just one note to presets, when I started to write the software for the handheld controller, I thought to do it with presets, because it is much easier than doing the calculations and it would give the blame to the user if it doesn't make a perfect sphare.
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When my fisheye digonal angle for 10mm is 168° (horizontal 135° (portrait > vertical)) then is sure that 6 shots at 0° + zenith covers not vertical 180°.
I can see the corner of silver case at -4° and whole at around -9°. Why the TC doesn't precount the 6 at -10° + zenith?
My lens is here - http://www.tokinalens.com/tokina/produc … dxfisheye/
I reprogrammed newly the TC controller and
at 10mm (168° diagonal) it begins on 0°
at 12mm (135° diagonal) it begins at -20°
at 13mm (124° diagonal) it begins at -24°
at 14mm (114° diagonal) it begins at -28°
at 15mm (106° diagonal) it begins at -31°
at 17mm (92° diagonal) it begins at -37°
For all focal lengths except the 10mm I can see the ground plate as I want. Why not at 10mm?
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just my 5cent of info:
you can use the TC to shoot a 360x180sphere covering all - and you can set the TC to shoot a sphere but leaving the nadir empty. So you've all options free depending on your workflow or your scene.
Klaus & Andrew - you both do say correct and each other supporting facts.
yes - predefined pattern are welcome...
yes - TC does calculate these predefined pattern live each time you use it.
to combine the papywizard method of importing such patterns via xml makes no sense for the TC handcontroller, as Klaus said - for what? because than you have to calculate the patterns by yourself. Adn if I decide to use 25% overlap on my pattern for each single image than the resulting (optimum calculated) pattern must be equal. thats mathematics. so why including the insecure factor human...
BUT to combine both philosophies I could imagine an option for the TC like:
you setup your TC configuring the values that makes your shooting pattern - but finally not pressing the start button to start the head doing the pano.... but saving the manual created pattern on the TC device (in form of xml ;-) ) and giving the template a useful name you ever can come back and choose your saved "pattern" to do the "same" pano on a new scene (without the need to remember the exact values you used the last time)
Liebe Gruesse,
Georg
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Hey Andrew!
I must apologize for being impatient and maybe sounding a bit agressively.
Had some stress around me - now it´s gone and i reread what i wrote.
So: sorry.
best, Klaus
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FelixAutopano wrote:
When my fisheye digonal angle for 10mm is 168° (horizontal 135° (portrait > vertical)) then is sure that 6 shots at 0° + zenith covers not vertical 180°.
I can see the corner of silver case at -4° and whole at around -9°. Why the TC doesn't precount the 6 at -10° + zenith?
My lens is here - http://www.tokinalens.com/tokina/produc … dxfisheye/
I reprogrammed newly the TC controller and
at 10mm (168° diagonal) it begins on 0°
at 12mm (135° diagonal) it begins at -20°
at 13mm (124° diagonal) it begins at -24°
at 14mm (114° diagonal) it begins at -28°
at 15mm (106° diagonal) it begins at -31°
at 17mm (92° diagonal) it begins at -37°
For all focal lengths except the 10mm I can see the ground plate as I want. Why not at 10mm?
Ok - if you would use a custom-style preset: where would you get it from? How would you generate a pattern for your individual setup
to feed it to the controller?
best, Klaus
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Hallo FelixAutopano, if the head would start down 10°, then it would leave 139°/2 - 10° = 59,5° above the horizontal level. The minimum angle for the zenit shoot is 93°/2 = 46,5° so the overlapping would be 59,5°+46,5°-90°=16°. 16 degree compared to 90° for 100% are 17%. So the overlapping between the row and the zenit are only 17%. This might be to less for a good stitch. If you really need it, I can change it only for you.
My e-mail: rgraessle@t-online.de
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