There is a fundamental issue with apg HDR.. WIth Photomatix, you simple process ONE set of bracketed images to achieve the desired effect.. Then you can batch process the rest of the images prior to stitching... WIth apg however, you actually stitch the entire bracketed pano sets, resulting in a huge file to play with so as a consequence it takes for ever to see any of the changes, only to find they are not as desired so I keep on going and going.. But even if after a lot of time getting it right.. What do you do with the other +++ panos in the same set..???

I have truly persevered with apg for two years or more.. Each and every time I attempt to go about it with a fresh attitude and new versions of software, I really have to come up with the same conclusion with apg.. Its is not great for bracketed images, HDR or LDR...

I have resized my images by a 1/3 of the size so file size is not an issue.. Or at least it shouldn't be an issue.. However, by the very nature of how apg processes a HDR pano, by using the entire set of bracketed images, it still takes very long time.. I just closed it since its just so irritating watching a loader take forever to make changes.. I will try again later with 3 bracketed images... 

Destiny...

What a the group settings you use, especially the block called 'links'?

Destiny wrote:

Hi.. Yes.. When I put my 10.5 on my D800 is automatically sets it to DX mode output... You can override this but no point.. As soon as I put an fx lens on it recognistes this and goes back to fx mode..

Could you precisely describe what your processing is like? Does the camera tell APG it didn´t use the sensor full-scale?
What about the head´s xml? Dose it know you used a FX camera in DX-mode? Does it tell the import-module?

I tried stacking in APG sometimes. It works - but i realized stitch-errors because of (i guess) issues setting CPs when optimizing on very bright and on very dark images precisely to the same pixels.

A workaround might be: taking ONE layer for seeking CPs, saving the "construction" and using the cp-placement for the other layers too.

But to be honest: using Photomatix first to make HDR-images and tonemap them before stitching i definitely like better for "usual" equi outputs.

On the other hand: if you NEED HDR-spheres for IBL you need to stitch bracketed sets for outputting the stitch as "true" .hdr/.exr equis.

best, Klaus

HansKeesom wrote:

klausesser wrote:

Destiny wrote:

Hi.. Yes.. When I put my 10.5 on my D800 is automatically sets it to DX mode output... You can override this but no point.. As soon as I put an fx lens on it recognistes this and goes back to fx mode..

Could you precisely describe what your processing is like? Does the camera tell APG it didn´t use the sensor full-scale?
What about the head´s xml? Dose it know you used a FX camera in DX-mode? Does it tell the import-module?

I tried stacking in APG sometimes. It works - but i realized stitch-errors because of (i guess) issues setting CPs when optimizing on very bright and on very dark images precisely to the same pixels.

A workaround might be: taking ONE layer for seeking CPs, saving the "construction" and using the cp-placement for the other layers too.

But to be honest: using Photomatix first to make HDR-images and tonemap them before stitching i definitely like better for "usual" equi outputs.

On the other hand: if you NEED HDR-spheres for IBL you need to stitch bracketed sets for outputting the stitch as "true" .hdr/.exr equis.

best, Klaus

The workaround you describe, you can have using group settings -> links-> detecs links in : The reference level....right?

I guess so.

best to you, Klaus

Stitching errors in APG are mainly due to, at least, two issues:

1. CPs, using fisheye lenses, are still not enough spread, both ways, (a) eachother and (b) along the full length of the overlapping areas of adjacent images!
(or put it another way: CPs are way too much clustered and center-positioned on the overlapping areas of adjacent images!)
They say APG has a fantastic algorithms that find CPs where none App is able... but do I need 50 or 200 CPs, all of them close eachother, where none App is able to find them and ZERO CPs where any other App CAN find them, just because there is enough detail, while APG CAN'T?

2. It's still not possible to have at the same time, "find CPs on all stack levels" and "use hard links"!
The idea on this is very easy: to use the stack as a single image but, at the same time, take advantage of the multiple exposures to find CPs, for example, on the highlights of underexposed images and in the shadows of overexposed images... just to have better spread CPs that cover the full length of the overlapping areas between adjacent images, with each image being actually a stack, just taken as a single image by APG during optimization!
It is just not possible to find CPs, equally spread, using only one exposure of the stack, like midexposures, because any detail in the highlights and in the shadows would be clipped (that is too white or too black) and so useless to find CPs between overlapping areas of adjacent images!
But APG Team insist on saying this is not possible because there would be a conflict... I still don't think so, because of the above explanation!

(just to be clear: I'm not saying to find CPs between images of the same stack!)

3. APG is not able to detect an HDR sequence and show it as a stack after importing: I use both In-Camera HDR and the Promote Control.
I have to do it manually every time.

My opinion: Kolor Team should invest more time on CP generation and optimization on the next 3.1 version rather than color issues, as they anticipated.
It's still possible and easy to color correct in Post Processing a perfectly stitched pano... but who needs a badly stitched pano with perfect colors?

Also, when using XML Templates I'm missing a lot of options in the preferences tabs... then I set the EXIF Info for the lens in preferences tab but I always find the value on the XML info, for the lens, on the pano properties (but maybe this is a bug already solved on the last version, I didn't tried yet)... and how can I be sure APG keep the informations from the XML Template when stopping the detection to set my preferences, like a bracketed sequence, because such preferences are missing at the moment of importing the Template?


Let's hope in an improved APG 3.1 for the next Year!   
Regards,
Marco

Last edited by marco.lanciani (2012-12-23 18:40:41)

I will just respond to point 3. This is a setting you can choose. Works great for me.

Just goto edit-settings->images->Stacks. Choose the second or third option. Let us know if that changes things for you

HansKeesom wrote:

I will just respond to point 3. This is a setting you can choose. Works great for me.

Just goto edit-settings->images->Stacks. Choose the second or third option. Let us know if that changes things for you

Hans, I've found and activated the option (it's the second option): next time I'll use APG I'll see... Thanks.

Regards,
Marco

Hi.. I am now testing out the Fusion option panel.. I moved the Exposure target over to the right just a little and wait.. and wait.. and wait.. and wait.. I guess if I waited long enough it will show the result.. but what if its not as I want and have to move it a bit more.. I think after 30 min its long enough with the waiting.. This is just one pano.. What if I have a set of panos taken at the same time with the same exposure and light etc.. There is no way to save my settings to pass on and batch process so I have to do the wait thing again.. I would have to take a screen shot of the settings and try to copy that to the next pano... This is not a great tool at all..

Well, got fed of of waiting so I closed that window and....it did  not like me doing that.. What do I do now... start all over from the beginning I guess.. Does the apg 3.1 come with with a super computer!!..

Destiny...

Emm. Thanks for the offer, and I will but with a different set of images.. I don't want to board cast my messy bedroom to the world.. It was the only room I could close the door without a pair or little eyes staring at the VR Drive do its thing..  ..

I will try with a new set after Christmas.. Firstly, I need to make sure my NNP is perfect.. I really thought it was but perhaps not.. I would love to be able to use apg without issues. I might well be doing something wrong without realising it..

Destiny..

Destiny wrote:

Emm. Thanks for the offer, and I will but with a different set of images.. I don't want to board cast my messy bedroom to the world.. It was the only room I could close the door without a pair or little eyes staring at the VR Drive do its thing..  ..

I will try with a new set after Christmas.. Firstly, I need to make sure my NNP is perfect.. I really thought it was but perhaps not.. I would love to be able to use apg without issues. I might well be doing something wrong without realising it..

Destiny..

Emmm bummer, was so ready to test my stitching skills...... guess we have to accept we will never know whether APG is really that bad .....

Masking with brackets can be speed up by using the fat red and green targets. Works great although I would also like option to scroll a bracket at a time when not having moving objects inside bracket.

Marco, let me try to say this carefully, reading your last post I feel like you are less motivated then me to accept the solutions APG is offering and are more motivated then me to get the people of Kolor to make APG work the way you want.

It reminds me of a saying in my native language that says "if things don't go the way they should go, make them go the way they can go" ( sometimes we add "said the farmer and he placed himself in front of the plough"  )

Destiny wrote:

Hi.. I am now testing out the Fusion option panel.. I moved the Exposure target over to the right just a little and wait.. and wait.. and wait.. and wait.. I guess if I waited long enough it will show the result.. but what if its not as I want and have to move it a bit more.. I think after 30 min its long enough with the waiting.. This is just one pano.. What if I have a set of panos taken at the same time with the same exposure and light etc.. There is no way to save my settings to pass on and batch process so I have to do the wait thing again.. I would have to take a screen shot of the settings and try to copy that to the next pano... This is not a great tool at all..

Well, got fed of of waiting so I closed that window and....it did  not like me doing that.. What do I do now... start all over from the beginning I guess.. Does the apg 3.1 come with with a super computer!!..

Destiny...

In my workflow, I never wait for the detection or the rendering. Before detection phase I check all groups and then send them off like one big batch. If it takes 24 hours to get all groups done it is fine with me.
While editing I first edit all groups and check them with preview up to 25%. Only when all groups are ready I fire off all groups for rendering. Sometimes it will take all night to get them done, I just leave the workstation alone.Yes I have some issues with APG (and people from KOLOR) being stubborn and forcing their defaults for fisheye on my projects. It does forces me to either change these settings before detection or in the editor which forces me to run an extra optimalization, waisting my time (http://www.kolor.com/forum/t15931-app-3 … -and-group), but I get where I want in the end while spending an extra two-five minutes on each panorama, so the costs of their stubborness is limited.

All this is done on a i7 920 so not that much of a supercomputer. I think you don't need that, you might just need a change in workflow ;-)