Leif, from technical point of view I can understand Klaus statement. yes NPP could be better found, shooting pattern could be better choosen and a lot more - but on other side I think software should not compel us users to use the most perfect workflow (because than only one workflow is valid ;-)) to get usable/optimum results, it should support us to make the most perfect result of what we provide/supply. autopano does make this nearly in perfection now - but I think such a tool could back up this demand.

from logical point of view I dont understand, why its possible to program an vertical tool working pretty good, but not a horizontal tool. Both tools are placed in a sphere, both have markers in 180" directions.

@ Klaus - yes I used IE9 to klick on leifs link and I did say open the zipfile (not saving it). than when open I did save the content on local disc...

Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

lumelix wrote:

It is really massive and don't allow you using the xml-pattern to fix it.

I disagree. Even indoors with a perfectly adjusted NPP setup you need to optimize the images. No head in this world is precise enough to produce a image-set that can be stitched without optimizing.
"Massive" in this case is +/- 1.5 deg. In my opinion APG should handle or include tools to handle this precision. It is marketed at a auto tool for handheld images !

lumelix wrote:

Then we have there low contrast, windy clouds and a sea full of moving waves.
Where should a image analyzer find there some usefull CP's ?

You are wrong about "we have there low contrast". The exposure is a compromise to avoid burned out whites and black shadows. The 12.3 EV dynamic range of the sensor is fully exploited.

lumelix wrote:

Don't use this pole, if it isn't absolutely necessary, like in this case.
If you must use it, then fix it with three cords to the floor, so it couldn't move around.
Shoot the horizon line centrically and in one passage from left to right.
Now you can use the xml-pattern to stitch the images together.

"then fix it with three cords to the floor"
well. in the mountains there are no floor. there are no road either, so all the equipment has to be carried on your back. you don't want to bring along broadcast-quality equipment.

I have made a new program (manual edited) on the VRdrive for the 25mm lens, which shoots a pattern where the horizon is in one row only.
This will reduce the troubles, I hope.

This does not eliminate the need for a tool for horizons. It is peculiar that there is a vertical line tool but no horizon tool. And it is a mystery that Kolor has not adressed this after hundreds of posts about this. See this from 2006 !  http://www.kolor.com/forum/p4771-2006-1 … 8-41#p4771
For the last six years there has been hundreds of posts asking for a tool to help make a nice horizon. Search for "horizon" in the forum to see for yourself.

Leif

Last edited by leifs (2012-11-23 00:06:51)

lumelix wrote:

Try to find some CP's manually in the example below (from your images) - you can't.

Agree. The way APG works there is none. But the computer between my ears can clearly see the horizon
I'm sure Kolor can make some software that identify the horizon as well. 
Until now I have not asked for the software to identify the horizon and do the stitch.
Me and many others have asked for a tool so we can help APG do a better stitch of the horizon, using what we see.

Leif

Last edited by leifs (2012-11-23 09:17:39)

leifs wrote:

"then fix it with three cords to the floor"
well. in the mountains there are no floor. there are no road either, so all the equipment has to be carried on your back. you don't want to bring along broadcast-quality equipment.

Well, Leifs: you wouldn´t walk the Himalya wearing your Nike jogging shoes, would you. That means: use the approriate equipment - or you must take in account massive errors.
Every pole or even a high tripod which exceeds 2m NEEDS to be fixed by ropes to the ground when there is heavy wind. Forget "multiple viewpoints" here - that´s ok with fisheyes and few shots.

leifs wrote:

I have made a new program (manual edited) on the VRdrive for the 25mm lens, which shoots a pattern where the horizon is in one row only.
This will reduce the troubles, I hope.

This will be better definitley. But the issues with the pole remain.

leifs wrote:

This does not eliminate the need for a tool for horizons. It is peculiar that there is a vertical line tool but no horizon tool.

Don´t be misguided by the name. It is NAMED a "vertical line tool" - but it works perfectly for horizons also - that´s why Kolor implementesd the yellow doted lines. Absolutely no question. But you definitely  to do the shooting propperly first hand.

leifs wrote:

And it is a mystery that Kolor has not adressed this after hundreds of posts about this.

A "mistery"? Not at all: there were several suggestions to use the vertical line´s tool yellow dotted lines for horizons - and there´s video-tutorial how to use it for straightening a horizon.
A "mistery" i see rather in ignoring all the clues . .

As i stated several times before: i often use the head/camera spinning in a 45° position. Then the horizon is VERY much tilted. Using the VLT and aligning the yellow dotted lines along lines i want to be vertical ALWAYS results in perfectly horizons. I NEVER failed to get a horizon straight, when using the tool´s yellow dotted lines additionally.

A horizon usually is far away, right? Yes. And far-way-objects aren´t complicated to stitch in any terms - given you do a correct shooting and do not expect a stitcher to save an impropper shooting´s issues.

best, Klaus

leifs wrote:

In my opinion this software should tackle a roll of +/-1.5 degrees with ease. And it does when there are CP's. No problem.
But when there are no CP's its another ballgame.

You name it. When there are no CPs: set them manually.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser (2012-11-23 19:06:44)

How do I set the CP's manually ?

rhetorical question?
Georg

gkaefer wrote:

How do I set the CP's manually ?

rhetorical question?
Georg

I know how to set CP's manually.
I just want to know how to set the CP's with pixel accuracy in the pair of images shown
In this case it's easy to set CP's manually on the horizon, vertically. But how do I set them horisontally ?

Leif

leifs wrote:

In this case it's easy to set CP's manually on the horizon, vertically. But how do I set them horisontally ?

Your issue seems to be rather the vertical connections - otherwise you wouldn´t get vertical steps in the horizon.

Anyway: the best solution is to set the head in a way that it shoots a middle row horizontally. When you put the camera in landscape-mode you minimize the problem of moving clouds a bit.
By shooting only one exposure per position instead of bracketing you minimize the movin cloud problem even more because they naturally move further the longer it takes you to shoot.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser (2012-11-24 13:32:10)

ThomasV wrote:

That's why I wrote a tutorial about straight horizon at your demand few months ago. In this tutorial, I explained that the plane of the water and the plane of the clouds generate a kind of paralax (regardless your shooting setup) since they are moving. And I explained that, to avoid such problems, you have to setup manually almost all CPs around the horizon. Looking at your pano, it appears that you didn't do that.

I've read the tutorial several times and it's useful. But it use the "move pano tool" to straighten the horizon, and this results in steps. I'm sure you can see that yourself if you at the end of the tutorial renders the pano and inspect  it in 100%. There will be steps in the rendered pano that you cannot see in the editor.

And then: <<you have to setup manually almost all CPs around the horizon>>
Could you please explain how to do that in the case above, in http://www.kolor.com/forum/p107757-2012 … 24#p107757

ThomasV wrote:

Once more, I wanna tell that we understand the need for a simpler tool about straight horizon (which is not a simple horizontal line tool).

Regards,
Thomas

APG3 relies on controlPOINTS, fixed by x,y. 
For the horizon maybe it would be better with a controlLINES. Let the user draw a line on the horizon in neighbouring images, force the lines to match but let them slide horisontally.

Regards
Leif

I'm trying to move this case forward:
this time it's calm, no wind. I've used a pole supported by a tripod.
I have made a shooting pattern with the horizon in one row only.
It should be a piece of cake.

After using all my skills there is still a step in the horizon. It's maybe a rotation of 0.1 degree, but it's visible in 100%.
I have rendered it as "simple" and doctored it using Photoshop. The result is artifacts around the nadir.
The morale: APG still lack a horizon line-tool
http://www.rundskuer.no/panotour/langen … ltour.html

to Klaus:
take a trip to the coast and shoot a pano before you give your opinion on this problem.

Leif

lumelix wrote:

The solution for your problem is:
Don't use this pole, if it isn't absolutely necessary, like in this case.
If you must use it, then fix it with three cords to the floor, so it couldn't move around.
Shoot the horizon line centrically and in one passage from left to right.
Now you can use the xml-pattern to stitch the images together.

I definitely second your words regarding the pole. A collegue shot a 360° from a hotel´s roof here in Duesseldorf using a pole 16m high - hydraulic construction, extremely rigid - and fixed it with 3 steel cords.
He had borrowed a Panoneed prototype head from Josef. Perfect stitch - also windy situation. But hey: he´s a pro. http://www.duesseldorf-gigapixel-panora … p.com.html

Shooting an extra strictly horizontal row and adding it to the complete sphere maybe can solve the issue - which, honestly, shoudn´t be existent at all . . .

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser (2012-12-27 16:08:25)

klausesser wrote:

your issues which exist for months now . . . .
best, Klaus

months? 
years !!
try a search in the forum on "horizon" and there will be 40 pages with posts about the issue
here is one post from 2006 (!)
http://www.kolor.com/forum/p394-2006-01 … 06-52#p394
Ben is writing:  "The current vertical tool is a bit of a hack and not very easy to use to fix horizontal lines."  and he wants a better  tool for APG ver 1.2 !!
Six years later and ver 3.01 there is still no tool, still only the vertical line tool.

Leif

Last edited by leifs (2012-12-27 16:42:33)